| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Changes to be made to the job posting system Thread poster: David Russi
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| we don't want to be paid better... | Apr 5, 2010 |
we just want to be able to set our rates. It's a completely different and easy-to-understand concept, which has nothing to do with the market or the markets. It's a simple mechanism, applied in every industry. In all my entire working life, I haven't had a single customer coming to me and try and impose their budget on me. They always ask what my rate is. Take it or leave it. They don't try to negotiate and very often accept it. Maybe it's a cultural thing...
I would like a new feat... See more we just want to be able to set our rates. It's a completely different and easy-to-understand concept, which has nothing to do with the market or the markets. It's a simple mechanism, applied in every industry. In all my entire working life, I haven't had a single customer coming to me and try and impose their budget on me. They always ask what my rate is. Take it or leave it. They don't try to negotiate and very often accept it. Maybe it's a cultural thing...
I would like a new feature introduced in the jobs system: since it doesn't look like we'll ever be able to stop the site showing the posters' rates, publicly or not, I suggest every agency on Proz.com and on the Blue Board is forced to publish their average rate, so we can stay well clear from these bottom-feeders... now, that would be doing something for us, the translators... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson 
Spain
Local time: 17:36
Member (2007)
English
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| Great thinking, Giovanni | Apr 5, 2010 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
we just want to be able to set our rates. It's a completely different and easy-to-understand concept, which has nothing to do with the market or the markets. It's a simple mechanism, applied in every industry.
Absolutely!!! It won't change the rate we quote - we simply reserve the right to quote it, not have it imposed on us.
I would like a new feature introduced in the jobs system: since it doesn't look like we'll ever be able to stop the site showing the posters' rates, publicly or not, I suggest every agency on Proz.com and on the Blue Board is forced to publish their average rate, so we can stay well clear from these bottom-feeders... now, that would be doing something for us, the translators...
I vote for this too. In fact, I suggested a while back that outsourcer profiles have the same sort of rates section as translators have: minimum, maximum and target rates.
[Edited at 2010-04-05 11:12 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 18:36
French to German
+ ...
| A little revolution... | Apr 5, 2010 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I would like a new feature introduced in the jobs system: since it doesn't look like we'll ever be able to stop the site showing the posters' rates, publicly or not, I suggest every agency on Proz.com and on the Blue Board is forced to publish their average rate, so we can stay well clear from these bottom-feeders... now, that would be doing something for us, the translators...
I vote for this too. In fact, I suggested a while back that outsourcer profiles have the same sort of rates section as translators have: minimum, maximum and target rates.
or simply a measure of common sense - I agree too and would vote "with both hands"!
| | | | apk12
Germany
Local time: 18:36
English to German
+ ...
| a larger move | Apr 5, 2010 |
also hope this is a bit stronger than just a "hauptmanns weber reloaded" move.
as a chimpanzee, I vote with 4 thumbs up!
either let us categorize them in categories if they don't make their rates clear or rates via their self-entries
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David Russi
United States
Local time: 11:36
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | Bravo, Giovanni! | Apr 5, 2010 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
we just want to be able to set our rates. It's a completely different and easy-to-understand concept, which has nothing to do with the market or the markets. It's a simple mechanism, applied in every industry. In all my entire working life, I haven't had a single customer coming to me and try and impose their budget on me. They always ask what my rate is. Take it or leave it. They don't try to negotiate and very often accept it. Maybe it's a cultural thing...
I would like a new feature introduced in the jobs system: since it doesn't look like we'll ever be able to stop the site showing the posters' rates, publicly or not, I suggest every agency on Proz.com and on the Blue Board is forced to publish their average rate, so we can stay well clear from these bottom-feeders... now, that would be doing something for us, the translators...
I agree wholeheartedly with your entire post!
| | | | | Naturally, we're coming at the problem from different perspectives | Apr 6, 2010 |
David Russi wrote:
You seem to think that negotiations are normal, that we translators should have to negotiate for every job they get. I do not; nor do lawyers, plumbers, carpenters, doctors, and millions of other professionals. .... I, for one, am not interested in it: I have my rate, which is fair, and I do not feel I need to justify it every time I am offered a job.
[Edited at 2010-04-05 05:34 GMT]
Hi, David. Yes, I do think that negotiations are normal. I suspect you negotiate all the time in the way that I mean, but don't call it negotiation. And I think everyone in the professions you named negotiates all the time. They do so for the same reasons we do: to meet/beat their revenue targests and preserve/improve their cost structure. I don't think anything of it. To me, it's just business.
I have a rate that I think is fair, but I don't expect everyone to pay it. I do business with the agencies that will pay my rate. But that doesn't mean I don't negotiate. Boy, do I! Someone might call it marketing, or promotion, but it all comes down to negotiation -- making the case and making choices. I just consider it part and parcel of the freelance business we are in and don't think of it (or the other party) as good or bad. The whole experience can be tedious, that's for sure (I'd rather be translating!), but it just goes with the territory. That, and the fact that as long as I have to negotiate/compete I'd like a full and fair chance to do so and deal with a knowledgable buyer, is what accounts for the suggestions I made in my original post.
I don't feel a need to explain or defend my rate in principle. I an outsourcer asks me why I'm declining their rate, I tell them the value I feel they get with my rate, but I don't attack the rate they have brought to the table. I don't feel I can presume to tell them what makes their business model work in the economy they work in.
Though I come down heavier on the free-market macro-economics side of the debate, I'm not without sympathy to the point you make. Our discussion here reminds me a little of the national discussions I've observed about raising the minimum wage. There is always a side that looks at the workers' situation and wants to raise the minimum wage to create less oppressive living conditions for them. Some of its champions are distinctly and rabidly anti-establishment, but that doesn't take away from the merit of the position. And there is always the side that recognizes that raising the minimum wage of workers changes the cost structure of not only the businesses that employ them but the business that those businesses do business with, and then industry and -- ultimately -- the entire economy, which in turn raises the cost of living, which then brings up the need to raise the minimum wage again. Some of the champions of this view include the worst incarnations of Big Business, but that doesn't take away from the merit of the position either. Both sides are right. Unfortunately, the topic never goes away. The need to have the discussions is cyclic. So the discussions are not simple and are never settled "once and for all". Again, it's just part of doing business.
I will allow that if ProZ were to set a minimum rate at which job posters could post, that would weed out the riffraff (or at least the volume of job offers some of us consider beneath us). But my concern is that this is a global jobs portal, and if we start policing membership that way, we stifle part of the market. Therefore, I prefer a more nuanced way of matching job offers to job candidates while still giving each side some of the privacy and discretion they need in their direct dealings with one another. And so I put out a few ideas. There are other things we could do, too. (Like let anyone who wants to post a job post it, but restrict bidding to nonpaying members. This sounds awful but might be practical, since ProZ's fees are, I suspect, affordable for serious translators and agencies in most economies, so the people this leaves dealing with each other would be (at worst) those who place no value on the site or the translator's worth or (at best) those who are unable to compete in the higher-priced markets.
Back to the word "negotiation" and why I say that even though I have my rate and that's what I work for, I negotiate. If someone offers me what I consider a bad rate, I simply excuse myself from the discussions (aka I leave early negotiations) and tell them I hope they find what they're looking for at the price they are asking for. When I compete with other translators who offer my rate (or a higher rate, and maybe even a lower rate -- I never know which or even who I'm up against), I promote my capabilities because I want the agency to pick me and feel that they have good reason to do so (i.e., that, too, is for me an act of negotiation). And when the prospective client tells me more about a prospective job, I may review whether the base rate we've discussed until that point is adequate or adequately framed. If the job has special demands, I will point these out and modify my price offer (negotiate) accordingly. The agency will come back with what they want (negotiate).
So for me, negotiation is part and parcel of what we do. I don't think you can ever eliminate the need to negotiate, either. However, I would like to improve the conditions. I don't think the prevailing ProZ practice about publishing rates (translator rates or outsourcer rates) is ideal or helpful, and I'm skeptical about the value of the changes that have been proposed. That's just my view after many years is this and other international businesses.
It seems to me that lawyers, plumbers, carpenters, doctors and the millions of other professionals who offer me their services, do just what I've described above. They negotiate as I described. My discussions with them are a little more straightforward because they charge time and materials. As translators, we charge time, too, but because convention forces us to convert our hourly rate into a rate per-word/line/page/project, things can get messy. The end rate then depends not just our setting "our rate" but on how successful we and the outsourcer are about communicating and agreeing about the nature and associated value of each word/line/page/project. And for me that means that negotiation will always be with us. I just don't see any way around it. I only hope we can improve it.
PS While I'm not sure that the solution of posting the outsourcer's average rate will make as clean a cut as the enhanced job-and-translator-matching engine I was suggesting, I do agree that something like this would be helpful to avoid bottom-feeders. The reason I am against anyone posting their rates publicly is that instead of improving negotiations between outsourcers and translators, I fear that this could cause translators to undermine translators and outsourcers to undermine outsourcers. I'm afraid that undercutting will just continue and even aggravate the problem we have now.
| | | | Calliope Sofianopoulos (X)
Australia
Local time: 04:36
Greek to English
+ ...
| Yes, I love negotiating... in the real world | Apr 6, 2010 |
Deborah Workman wrote:
Yes, I do think that negotiations are normal. I suspect you negotiate all the time in the way that I mean, but don't call it negotiation. And I think everyone in the professions you named negotiates all the time. They do so for the same reasons we do: to meet/beat their revenue targests and preserve/improve their cost structure. I don't think anything of it. To me, it's just business.
...
It seems to me that lawyers, plumbers, carpenters, doctors and the millions of other professionals who offer me their services, do just what I've described above. They negotiate as I described. My discussions with them are a little more straightforward because they charge time and materials. As translators, we charge time, too, but because convention forces us to convert our hourly rate into a rate per-word/line/page/project, things can get messy. The end rate then depends not just our setting "our rate" but on how successful we and the outsourcer are about communicating and agreeing about the nature and associated value of each word/line/page/project. And for me that means that negotiation will always be with us. I just don't see any way around it. I only hope we can improve it.
...
Negotiations are normal.
Example 1: I called an aircon tradesman at the beginning of summer to take a look at my airconditioner that was making funny noises. He charged me $80 for the visit. Once he looked at the unit he told me that it was fixable and that it would cost another $200 to fix. He could have told me to buy a new one, and I may never have bought one for him to install. However he still would have charged his $80, regardless of what my decision was.
Example 2: I went to a dentist a few months ago. He charged me $100 for the visit. He told me which teeth needed fillings, what he would do and how much it would cost. My opinion was that the $500 he was asking for was too much so I made an appointment with another dentist. She charged me $90 for the visit. She told me which teeth needed to be fixed and told me that it would cost me $480 to fix them. My decision is irrelevant. Neither one of the two dentists lost their time. I paid both of them.
In our case: A client finds me on proz.com and requests a free sample of our work from ten translators. We work for a couple of hours for free, regardless of the outcome, and then the client choses one of the translators who have provided the test translation. So, more likely than not, I am one of the nine translators who do not get the job, since I am also more expensive than the others. So, nine out of ten translators work for free for this one client who only needs one translator.
I agree with you that negotiations are necessary, however most translators are listed on proz.com and work for translation agencies for lower rates than they would have charged the end client, and they justify that choice by saying that it saves them a lot of time on negotiations.
Now, I'm not saying "don't negotiate". All I'm saying is that proz.com provides plenty of value for outsourcers and not enough, if any, for translators. Rule No. 1 of any business/advertising/promotional decision is that you only pay for something that provides value for you. If the outsourcers are to reap the value, they ought to be the ones paying for the services. It should not be them setting the rates, in the first place, so if Henry wants to enforce his own business model upon us, then he can get paid by those directly benefiting from the situation.
Minimum rates would not work for anybody. A one size fits all approach would prove to be a disaster. Translations from/into Indian will most likely be completed by individuals living in India. Also, many outsourcers will be located there. How can you justify the same minimum rate in India as that in the US when minimum monthly wage in India is probably equivalent to what we make in an hour in Australia or in the US (forgive the assumption - I haven't checked my facts on this one... however only judging from what I know to be the general consensus on this matter)? That's not a viable solution. Allowing the translator to set the rates, just like in any situation in the real world is viable.
If the vendor sets the rates, then lets keep on paying the price for membership here. If not, then what's the point of paying proz.com to place us in a situation where we have to underbid each other? That is a situation that would profit the larger companies, so let them pay for membership.
[Edited at 2010-04-06 01:06 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 18:36
French to German
+ ...
| Prices vs. price/quality ratios | Apr 6, 2010 |
While we translators seem to think more in terms of price/quality ratios, many outsourcers come with a "budget" from their clients. Basically, it means that they did not take the time of negotiating with the client, out of fear of losing them. So they simply pass their inability on to translators.
Why should we accept anything which finds its origins in the fact that those supposed to negotiate for us do not much more than saying "Yes Sir, it will be done, and with a free one-w... See more While we translators seem to think more in terms of price/quality ratios, many outsourcers come with a "budget" from their clients. Basically, it means that they did not take the time of negotiating with the client, out of fear of losing them. So they simply pass their inability on to translators.
Why should we accept anything which finds its origins in the fact that those supposed to negotiate for us do not much more than saying "Yes Sir, it will be done, and with a free one-week stay at the Hilton and a bouquet of red roses on top".
Simply put, I think there are way too much translation agencies around and that's why there are many bad payers: because those who accept working for low rates put themselves out of business in the long run. These should indeed pay in order to be able to access to translators. ▲ Collapse
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| Still not persuaded .... | Apr 6, 2010 |
Calliope Sofianopoulos wrote:
In our case: A client finds me on proz.com and requests a free sample of our work from ten translators. We work for a couple of hours for free, regardless of the outcome, and then the client choses one of the translators who have provided the test translation. So, more likely than not, I am one of the nine translators who do not get the job, since I am also more expensive than the others. So, nine out of ten translators work for free for this one client who only needs one translator.
Before I became a full-time translator I worked as an independent consultant in the telecommunications industry, and that has colored my views. In that industry, consultants spend enormous amounts of time preparing bids for work and showing a lot of their hand. Only one consultant gets the job, but they all spent time preparing their bids (based on the rates they set, but theys till had to make their offer). And the client had to evaluate all the gazillion offers. So everyon spent a lot more time getting/giving work that focusing on their core business. Perhaps because I've seen this in other places, I'm just not so persuaded that agencies are wasting our time. To me, that's just how this type of business works. Most people don't get most of the work they apply for. And no one likes the process. Both agencies and translators are motivated to find a good partner and keep them happy. They want to avoid all that screening every time. As for tests, it seems to me that no translator should be spending hours on a free test translation. My own limit is no more than 300 words and I usually negotiate for quite a bit less if a test is required. Good agencies will not require a long test and better agencies will pay for a test of significant length.
... most translators are listed on proz.com and work for translation agencies for lower rates than they would have charged the end client, and they justify that choice by saying that it saves them a lot of time on negotiations.
I didn't know that that was the case. I'm not sure that using ProZ saves on negotiations, but it does save on marketing. I hate marketing, personally. Because of that, ProZ is my only marketing tool besides a business card and my resume. I got my first work (and an education in the school of hard knocks) mainly through the jobs board, but most of my work now comes from repeat clients gained there and people who find me through the directory. I know I could get a higher rate (maybe) from direct clients, but I don't want to do the work to find them, and I don't want to be anyone's employee. So mostly I wait for the good direct clients to plop into my lap. Occasionally they do. Meanwhile, I value the middlemen. But I only want to work with those who value me. So, I just take care to be selective about the jobs I go after, and I do my best to treat my existing clients really, really well so that I don't have to go after new ones too much.
All I'm saying is that proz.com provides plenty of value for outsourcers and not enough, if any, for translators.
Because I hate marketing, I'm for more value for translators, and I would pay more for a richer jobs filtering/matching engine.
If the outsourcers are to reap the value, they ought to be the ones paying for the services. It should not be them setting the rates, in the first place,
Ah! That's the point that gets me going. I just feel so strongly that neither party should/can set the rates. This is a marketplace with lots of buyers and sellers. The transactions take place between the willing ones. We might feel grudging as sellers sometimes, but by staying here rather than doing something else, we are expressing our willingness. I don’t advocate leaving, though. I'm not sure that the people who voted with their feet and left ProZ will find better rates and treatment out there. I feel "safe" at ProZ because of the lengths to which Henry and the staff go to listen to all users and raise the quality of the site. There are other portals out there, but this is the best I've found.
Minimum rates would not work for anybody. A one size fits all approach would prove to be a disaster. Translations from/into Indian will most likely be completed by individuals living in India. Also, many outsourcers will be located there. How can you justify the same minimum rate in India as that in the US when minimum monthly wage in India is probably equivalent to what we make in an hour in Australia or in the US (forgive the assumption - I haven't checked my facts on this one... however only judging from what I know to be the general consensus on this matter)? That's not a viable solution. Allowing the translator to set the rates, just like in any situation in the real world is viable.
I agree that setting minimum rates would be a disaster for all the reasons that you say about the different economic contexts of translators and outsourcers. What I was proposing was a modification of my original proposal. My original proposal is that all parties set a price at which they are willing to entertain a job offer -- not a minimum rate, but the rate at which they are willing to begin negotiations, and each party also establish how far from that start price they are willing to deviate (0% either way, 2% down/unlimited up, whatever). They do that already, but my thought is that this information would go into the ProZ jobs filtering/matching engine (not for publication), and that way no parties would be matched up with prospects that really are not in the same market (budget) that they are. Everyone would be sent only appropriate matches, and all parties would still have a little wiggle room for whatever discretionary changes the situation requires. When I saw that some folk feel strongly about publishing a minimum, I suggested the alternative of using the published minimum as the threshold for entering the game where ProZ paying customers play (presumably these are the translators who want to ask the higher rates and the outsourcers who can pay them). All other job offers can be posted by and to whomever. The jobs filter/matching engine could include/exclude these other jobs in notices to paying translators (I’d say though that if the translator chooses to accept them, there can be no whining that the rates are unattractive).
If the vendor sets the rates, then lets keep on paying the price for membership here. If not, then what's the point of paying proz.com to place us in a situation where we have to underbid each other? That is a situation that would profit the larger companies, so let them pay for membership.
Again, I just don't agree that the vendor can set rates any more than the seller can set rates or that it’s any different in the translation world than anyplace else. (Just because an outsourcer says s/he will pay US$0.02/word doesn't mean s/he can impose that rate; s/he may not find anyone to do the work, so s/he may have to forfeit the project or take a translator at a higher price.) I think it takes two to tangle. I'm happy to keep on paying for my membership just to be presented outsourcers to tangle with. BUT I am convinced that what is driving rates down is the publication of rates by either side. That's what encourages undercutting. That is why I object to anything that forces rates to be "set" publicly by either translators or outsourcers or ProZ. I am for a jobs filtering/matching engine that channels all buyers and sellers into "spaces" defined by their privately reported negotiating ranges, and seeing what they can come up with when they meet in these spaces. Separately, in the aggregate, ProZ could report on some of the negotiating range trends if this would be helpful, but no individual rates per translator or outsourcer, I say.
Corporate members do pay for their membership, and they pay more than we do. And just as we complain about the quality of job offers, they might well complain about the quality of candidates by virtue of the fact that ProZ is a place for anyone who wants to work in translation. It's a brilliant resource for beginning translators, and I'd like it to stay that way. But I suspect that outsourcers have the problem, like us, that they get a lot of responses from people who aren't really ready for prime time. Sure, those people probably don't get the work they go after, but they cost the outsourcer by using the outsourcer's time.
ProZ has introduced a lot of features to find better matches for translators and for outsourcers, and I'm glad they are always working on improvements. What we're discussing is the need for another improvement, I think. But in my mind, it's the engine that should be improved. I don't think that we can set rates (as in impose them), and I don't think outsourcers as buyers can set (impose) rates any more than anyone else who buys in quantity and knows what they expect to pay. (Example: Bad example, since I can’t remember when I last wore a dress, but here goes. After I buy enough dresses , I know what I can pay for a dress and still get a good one, so when I'm ready to buy again, that's where I set my price expectations. Once I start getting less value at that price, I consider adjusting my budget upwards, but not before. Occasionally, I have to buy something more costly because I don’t have time to shop. If the quality is undeniably better, that's likely to make me think that I get what I pay for, so I’ll resolve to pay more to get more. But if the quality is disappointing, it will simply reinforce my entrenched price expectations.)
Changes in the ProZ engine aside, I think we're more likely to be able to raise rates for ourselves and our colleagues by producing quality that our clients can't do without at the rates that we currently charge. Once the trust and reliability are established, we can raise rates and our clients will come along. (That’s currency fluctuations aside. They can undo the best-laid plans. Most of my clients are in Europe. For me to collect the dollar equivalent of what I used to collect based on my established rates, I'd need to raise my rates more than those economies can bear. To make it through this period that's hard for my European clients and me, I have to cultivate some US clients. Fortunately, that's working. But, as I said above, I really don't like marketing!)
So, I’m on board with making improvements. I’m just still holding out for a different kind. And I’m not prepared to give up my ProZ membership. There’s not a place I’d rather be.
| | | | Calliope Sofianopoulos (X)
Australia
Local time: 04:36
Greek to English
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| I still don't see why I should pay for membership... | Apr 6, 2010 |
Deborah Workman wrote:
Again, I just don't agree that the vendor can set rates any more than the seller can set rates or that it’s any different in the translation world than anyplace else.
I'm trying to picture anywhere in the world where I can go shopping and, instead of looking at the clothes in the shop window and comparing quality/price, I take a big sign with me saying "I want a dress and my budget is $xx".
| | | | Calliope Sofianopoulos (X)
Australia
Local time: 04:36
Greek to English
+ ...
| I still don't see why I should pay for membership... | Apr 6, 2010 |
Deborah Workman wrote:
I'm not sure that using ProZ saves on negotiations, but it does save on marketing. I hate marketing, personally. Because of that, ProZ is my only marketing tool besides a business card and my resume.
I'm also trying to think of any other marketing tool that I need to pay for that places my name in between a whole lot of other names depending on how much time I've wasted answering other people's questions - at the same time allowing any prospective client to get us all to fight over a job where the lowest bid wins.
| | | | Calliope Sofianopoulos (X)
Australia
Local time: 04:36
Greek to English
+ ...
| We should want to be paid better... | Apr 6, 2010 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
We don't want to be paid better...
we just want to be able to set our rates.
Certainly a lot better than $0.02 per word, and I dare say set our own rates depending on what we believe we can deliver, as well as to ensure that we can pay our bills and make a profit for our business! Is that so difficult to admit or do we all need to claim that our only reason for translating is our love for the profession? I know many doctors who got into their profession because of their love for mankind, but when the patient comes to visit them in their surgery they get billed by the receptionist at the same exact rate that all other patients do. There is a fee and it is set by the doctor, who takes into account studies, experience, expenses, and a nice juicy profit. Otherwise, why work?
Oh, ok, a lady came over a few months ago. She needed a medical certificate translated to receive medical care. She was wearing ragged clothes and told me she could not afford my fee. She had no idea that translations cost that much. She was turning her back to go when I told her to leave it with me. I never asked for any money from her. I'm sure many doctors do the same every now and again. It's nice to do something nice every now and again. However, if you're not making a profit, close the business.
Yes, we do want to get paid better, and we do want to set our own rates. If we leave rate-setting to the people that pay us, they will eventually set our rates to zero - I know I would in their shoes! Who wouldn't?
And if Henry insists to leave rate-setting to the outsourcers, then he should get paid only by them, not by us. You pay for the value you get, and the only ones getting value in this equation are the translation agencies.
[Edited at 2010-04-06 05:26 GMT]
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Calliope Sofianopoulos (X)
Australia
Local time: 04:36
Greek to English
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| Here's an idea... | Apr 6, 2010 |
I'll pay ten times the current membership fee every month if the bidding system is reversed to resemble any other auction that respects the participants. I'll place all my details and what I have to offer on my profile page. Then clients can log on and bid on who will pay me MORE to work for them. Then I can choose my jobs depending on how much more money I can make. Isn't that the definition of an auction? Isn't that how Ebay works? Isn't that how you buy a house? Why should you buy translation... See more I'll pay ten times the current membership fee every month if the bidding system is reversed to resemble any other auction that respects the participants. I'll place all my details and what I have to offer on my profile page. Then clients can log on and bid on who will pay me MORE to work for them. Then I can choose my jobs depending on how much more money I can make. Isn't that the definition of an auction? Isn't that how Ebay works? Isn't that how you buy a house? Why should you buy translation any differently? If you compare buying a house to buying a translation, which is the most important purchase you might make? Think about it!
[Edited at 2010-04-06 07:43 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 18:36
English to Polish
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| a lot of misunderstanding | Apr 6, 2010 |
Andreas Berger wrote:
I hate having to negotiate prices almost every day, as I guess we all do, but given the above we may have to go along with it for another while...
Andreas, have you considered... employment?
David Russi wrote:
You seem to think that negotiations are normal, that we translators should have to negotiate for every job they get. I do not; nor do lawyers, plumbers, carpenters, doctors, and millions of other professionals.(...) Try telling your accountant her fee won't fit your budget, or your surgeon that the colon surgery is too expensive for you, and see just how far you get. So, why should translators different?
Whether we have
- a negotiation, or
- a 'take it or leave it' situation
is purely a matter of business custom.
You won't negotiate with your accountant; yet, if they demand too much money, you'll get another accountant. And if you tell the accountant 'sorry, I can only pay this much', will the accountant throw a fit? I doubt it!
If you decide to get a liposuction, the doctor may or may not be willing to negotiate the price but they will be well aware of the fact that other doctors exist, and what they charge. Don't like the price, don't pay it.
Clients now expect to be able to continue lowering costs, and agencies have nowhere to go but us to find price cuts (I assure you managers still make good money). And make no mistake about it: a bidding (negotiating, if you prefer) marketplace can only bring rates down.
Well of course: that's how negotiation works. The buyer will start at X, you will start at X + a% and you will, or will not, meet somewhere in the middle.
Sounds to me a lot like crying over the fact that this is a market.
Sorry if this sounded patronizing. It's just that sometimes any sensible answer to a choir of complaints over the realities that we live in will sound patronizing.
[Edited at 2010-04-06 10:33 GMT]
| | | | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 18:36
English to Polish
+ ...
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I would like a new feature introduced in the jobs system: since it doesn't look like we'll ever be able to stop the site showing the posters' rates, publicly or not, I suggest every agency on Proz.com and on the Blue Board is forced to publish their average rate, so we can stay well clear from these bottom-feeders... now, that would be doing something for us, the translators...
And how, pray tell, would this rate be computed?
How would it be verified? hey, I'm paying 50 cents a word - oh wait, for this particular job...
After all, it is the translators who scoff at accepting jobs without knowing what they are. What kind of information would it reveal if an agency published an average rate? That they only do very simple / very difficult translations? You want to compare an ousourcer specialized in abdominal oncology with one that localizes general purpose websites?
I have another question, this time directed at the site staff.
Why is it free to post a job, yet you charge (through the wallet or by charging the membership fee) for responding to a job ad?
After all, if I had any $0.02 jobs to offer, I'd have every financial incentive to post one (no cost, possibility of getting a cheap low quality translation).
Still, before responding to a job offer, knowing I'd be one of the 50 people that do, I must weigh my options.
[Edited at 2010-04-06 10:59 GMT]
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