| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Changes to be made to the job posting system Thread poster: David Russi
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Laurent KRAULAND (X) 
France
Local time: 18:22
French to German
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| Filtering offers | Apr 3, 2010 |
José Carlos Ribeiro wrote:
ProZ should allow ME, as a service provider, to specify the criteria for accepting a request for quote. Minimum rate, payment term, potential job, pro-bono, fields, pairs, etc.
When preparing a request, the outsourcer should visualize what percentage of ProZ translators that request would reach. They could then change their criteria in order to attain a reasonable share.
To me, this means I will not need to negotiate unrealistic rates and also that whenever I received a ProZ job post I WOULD surely open and read it.
Hello José,
I discovered (quite by chance, I must admit) that I could filter job offers according to rates - I activated this feature and now only receive private job postings and Connect offers which suit me.
Furthermore, I never had payment issues with the outsourcers who contacted me in this way.
| | | | Calliope Sofianopoulos (X)
Australia
Local time: 04:22
Greek to English
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| A step in the right direction? | Apr 3, 2010 |
I thought so, and have previously made comments to that effect. Although I cannot know in advance what the final outcome will be, hopefully this petition has instigated a step in the right direction. However, I have serious doubts as to what this direction should be. Allow me to elaborate:
A comparison of sorts with other professions, those of lawyers, doctors, dentists and notaries in different countries, will tell us that most countries, to the best of my knowledge, have a regula... See more I thought so, and have previously made comments to that effect. Although I cannot know in advance what the final outcome will be, hopefully this petition has instigated a step in the right direction. However, I have serious doubts as to what this direction should be. Allow me to elaborate:
A comparison of sorts with other professions, those of lawyers, doctors, dentists and notaries in different countries, will tell us that most countries, to the best of my knowledge, have a regulating body that requires minimum fees to be set among its professional members for certain jobs. An example that comes to mind: I was recently told that in Australia, Notary Publics have a minimum fee of $50+GST to place their seal and certify a true copy of an original document. That's approximately 30 Euros for a 3-minute job, to check an original certificate, photocopy it and place their seal, stamp and sign it. Some of them charge up to double this price, but there is a minimum fee in place and none of them charge less. This minimum, again to the best of my knowledge, is set by their Bar Association, a body that ensures that its members do not work for anything less than they deserve. Hence, no Notary Public will be able to place financial strain on the profession by using unfair competition and negative trade practices to their own advantage.
When discussing the point with translators and expressing the view that the same should be true for us, you get the Greek translators who work in Greece arguing that although we work in an international market, “the minimum wage in Australia is higher” (just heard that last night and my blood curdled), or that translation is not on a par with the legal profession. Ok, tell me please, what does minimum wage have to do with professional services - and which professions is ours on a par with?
We have to understand that we are professionals, not tradespeople (who charge exorbitant rates anyway), nor school dropouts (who, lacking any skills, have to work in a supermarket for work experience), and certainly not charity organisations.
Those of you who ARE professionals will remember how many years it took you to study, how difficult it was for you to keep a part-time job while you were studying, many of you not working or earning an income throughout your studies, whichever country you did this in. Please remember how much it cost you to study or to buy your first computer, perhaps even further your studies into computers, buy your software (including TM and translation-specific overpriced software), how much it costs to run your BUSINESS and pay your taxes, how often you purchase hardware and software upgrades and, in essence, what it takes to be a professional Translator.
Are we then to be compared to low-income earners just because there is no Professional Body to sift out those who are not professionals from our profession? And are we to accept nothing but a low fee for this reason? Are we to be told that, because we were professional enough to invest in TRADOS, our 100% matches will not be paid for and that there’s a sliding scale fee reduction for all other matches? I don’t work that way but know many others who do and, whenever I am asked to comply with such outrageous requests, I’m still shocked to the bone!
Now, where does proz.com fit in?
Ok, problem No. 1: Translation is a profession that can be managed online, giving international access to clients for all of us. Now, why call this a problem when it has created so many job opportunities for all of us, when it has allowed us to work from any small corner of the Globe? Because any John Doe with an internet connection and twopence of knowledge of English and one other language, can do the same, coming into the game and calling themselves a Translator. If John Doe had done the same thing, pretending they were a Lawyer or Doctor online, every International Legal or Medical Organisation on the face of this Earth of ours would have been so hard down on his case that he wouldn’t have a leg (or typing finger) to stand on in any International or local Court!
Problem No. 2: Proz.com! In view of the lack of serious national or other Organisations, such as the local Bar Associations available to Lawyers, all Translators (and non-Translators) found a place to land in what we now call the largest translators’ forum on the internet. Now, if I had been a Lawyer, I doubt that I would have ever bid for a legal job online. My Bar Association would definitely not allow me to charge less than a particular fee for any given case or job. It would be up to me to prove my knowledge and expertise and to create a clientele that trusts me in a particular area of Law, at fees that are the same, or higher than, other practicing individuals in my profession. As a result, I would charge a fair fee, taking into account my years of study, expertise, success rate etc. In effect, I would be the one requesting my fee; the client would either accept or reject my services accordingly. I would NOT be bidding against other Lawyers on an online forum against people who have never studied to be Lawyers and/or would not know what a Professional Lawyer should be charging!
In anticipation of all those uncertified professionals who initially studied for other professions, and ended up translators later, let me say that I am not claiming that they are not translators. Allow me to agree that some of us have come from different studies and backgrounds and that the translation profession has been unregulated for many years in many countries, to the point that many of us have other qualifications that, however, make us better translators in certain specialised areas. I am also not referring to bad qualified translators. There will always be the good and bad in every profession, just as there are good and bad lawyers and doctors. The difference is that lawyers and doctors are entitled to work in their respective professions because they have a degree and will therefore not be that much better or worse than each other, depending on expertise. Nonetheless, there is also the issue of high school dropouts coming into our profession just as easily, in view of the fact that they spent 2 years being tutored in English, 2 nights a week after school. In our profession there is an influx of individuals who claim to be translators and are bidding on jobs for continuously lower fees, driving international translation prices down via proz.com, as well as lowering the quality of translations expected by clients internationally.
Now, I am a certified translator, I have a Translation Business, and I have a Website on the Internet where I showcase my studies/certification and expertise. I use my Website to advertise my business and to pull more translation work in my direction. If I had been a Lawyer, that would have sufficed. The client would have called me, we would have spoken for a few minutes, I would have told them how much I charge for the job they request, I would have made some concise statements as to my suitability for the job they propose, a few emails would be exchanged within the context of negotiation, and a final agreement would have been reached. The job is completed and the fee is paid.
However, I am not a lawyer, I am a translator. What happens instead? A client finds me on proz.com and either emails or calls me; we speak for a few minutes during which I am asked whether I use Trados. I am told how much they pay per word and per percentage of TM matches on their own sliding scale, I am asked to complete a 500 word sample translation for free and I am promised many more hundreds of thousands of words in translation as a result. I spend the next couple of hours of my life producing the “perfect translation” for the sample supplied. Once the sample is completed and accepted, then the first paid job is sent for a margin of what I would consider a fair price on the PO. I complete that and, a week later, I am sent the job back and told that the client’s independent checker has requested that changes be made to reflect the file attached. When I try to explain that these changes are either mistakes or irrelevant and that they should not, or do not need to, be made, I am threatened that if I do not make the changes, their client will not pay them and they will not be able to pay me as a result. I make the changes to keep the client happy in hope I will be paid, I use their own online bookkeeping/accounting system to upload an invoice to their specifications, making appropriate changes to my own billing system and spending an hour or two to help with their automated accounts - and then I expect to be paid. The international cheque for $20 is sent one month later by regular post, in accordance with their own payment methods, I wait another 10 days to receive it and I have to pay my bank $10 to deposit it into my account, also waiting another 5 days for the cheque to clear.
However, the client is a large multinational translation agency which seems to get priority treatment on the internet. They don’t have to ask the translator how much they charge, they only have to request a bid on proz.com for hundreds of would-be translators to rush to oblige at a fee of anything between 0.01 and 0.10 per source word. So, bidding against them at a rate of 0.12 is obviously a waste of time for any translator that respects themselves and their profession.
The proz.com would-be reforms are not the beginning, nor the end of our professional woes. Unfortunately, Translators’ rights and ethical practices, charging of fees and other issues, cannot be resolved by an international private business. However, these issues cannot also be regulated on a local level anymore. The internet has made this impossible. Other websites that deal with professional translators have not had much business success because of the fact that proz.com has been so successful in implementing SEO and other internet specific methods and practices to rate first in any online search. This is a plus for Henry and his staff, but raises issues such as how can any private business like proz.com be responsible for rectifying all the wrongs that have been raised due to its mere existence.
Please remember that proz.com is a private BUSINESS. As such, it relies on income derived from subscription/membership fees for its existence. However, a line needs to be drawn – does proz.com rely on translators or on translation agencies for its income? It cannot rely on both! If proz.com relies on translators, then the whole site needs to undertake considerable changes to reflect the needs and wishes of translators. If not, then leave the system alone, it works fine for agencies and they have free, or next to free, translators galore to choose from. The recent corporate membership move made by proz.com requesting exorbitant fees to gain considerable advantages, which aimed at large translation agencies, has proven to me that proz.com sees itself on a par with the large multinationals, not with the individual translator. Therefore, I cannot see that the site will be able to make things any more difficult for its main high-price paying clientele base, just to make us translators happier and to help us raise our fees.
My suggestion is to treat proz.com as the private business it is, and not as a regulating body. Henry is not our daddy who will listen to our problems and kiss and make it all better. He is a businessman with a business that has been made successful largely because of our participation. The reason this is now on the table is because 844 translators decided to terminate their subscriptions until this issue is resolved. That is approximately $84400 that Henry's business will not get if this issue is not resolved.
And what about the rest of us? Are we going to let this matter go? Are we going to continue to see our income shrink so that Henry's business can flourish? How many of you have made $84400 this year?
Henry, you are either with us or against us. The large agencies have driven our prices down, and that has nothing to do with normal market trends, supply and demand, or the credit crunch. It can be traced directly to your Website practices which, agreed by all participants, is the leading market factor in the translation industry today. Kudos/z to you for succeeding in the unthinkable – one person with a vision ten years ago becoming the one driving factor behind the international marketing practices of an entire industry. However, the internet and the way it has evolved for all, has come to a point in history where changes and important decisions need to be made. Sorry, mate, it’s up to you to make them.
If you are with us, make the website free for all agencies, charge all of us translators a fee to participate, don't allow free participation for translators and don’t allow any translators to underbid the others. Allow us to showcase our work or expertise, ensure that we are all qualified to work in the industry and make the system fair for all PROFESSIONALS concerned.
If you are against us, make the website free for all translators and non-translators alike, charge the agencies a fee to participate, leave the bidding system the way it is and don’t worry about it again. It works fine for your high-paying agency clients.
I was a paying member for years, until I decided that your website practices were not in my best interests, and remain a non-paying member until today. I know that many colleagues of mine feel the same way and I challenge you to make the right decision now that the system is clearly faulty in view of changing market trends and an evolving industry.
I apologise for the lengthy account. My goal was to put a lot of my own concerns into perspective and hope to have done the same for any of you patient enough to get to the end of this post.
Happy Easter to all those who will be celebrating tomorrow.
[Edited at 2010-04-03 08:29 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Changes to be made to the job posting system | Apr 3, 2010 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
although rates won't be visible on the site, outsourcers are still permitted to specify their budget and "impose" rates, which is a market distortion... it just doesn't happen in any other industry... how many times do we need to repeat this? Translators set the rates, not the other way 'round... why is Proz.com allowing a system which goes against any business sense? And why doesn't Proz.com take the lead in bucketing this trend by reverting this bizarre and distorting mechanism? That would do a lot of good to Proz.com...
[Edited at 2010-04-02 12:08 GMT]
I agree. For some time I was thinking about to become a full member of Proz. And this was and remain precisely the main obstacle that prevented me to do it. It would be just silly to pay someone that is teasing me and my market. After reading very carefully the changes proposed by Henry and the site staff, I have the feeling that everything remains the same. The arguments given to do, or better said not to do something, are the typical one of the sales claim management: Yes, you're right, but bla bla bla... The case is that the product remains exactly the same, but they still try to sell it to us with his best clothes.
[Editado a las 2010-04-03 07:05 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 18:22
French to German
+ ...
| About a legally binding definition... | Apr 3, 2010 |
Andreas Berger wrote:
Hence our legal status is at least ambiguous, somwhere between 'vendor' and 'part timer', but in effect entitles us to no more than suggesting prices, not dictating them as some other freelancing professions can. And, sadly but consequently, clients are thus entitled to suggest tariffs/budgets with their job posting.
Rather, it seems to me that we need a more legally binding definition of our professional status - something that sadly cannot be provided by ProZ.com but only by local authorities!
I hate having to negotiate prices almost every day, as I guess we all do, but given the above we may have to go along with it for another while...
Dear colleagues,
you will forgive me if this post is meant to reply both to Calliope and Michael.
Point 1:
As per today, no legally binding definition of any (liberal) profession, status or whatever was able to prevent said professionals from serious errors, which found their roots either in ignorance or in gross negligence. Remember the irradiation scandal in France, the subway accident scandal in Germany... and so many others which are covered up.
Point 2:
Even the longest and most expensive trainings/education courses will not protect any (liberal) professional from being over-confident, a state of mind which can lead to disasters - remember the Tenerife ground collision back in 1977?
So and in my opinion, the best "protection" we can think of is to use our best judgement, to explain what we do (and to do what we explain) and to set rates we can live on without working 24/7. Yes, potential clients may decline our offers or even send us to hell. But seriously: would a legal binding definition protect us in any way against cheapskates and penny pinchers, wholesalers, wheelers and dealers?
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Niraja Nanjundan (X)
Local time: 22:52
German to English
| All parties have to become involved | Apr 3, 2010 |
I think it's good that ProZ has reacted to the petition and is making some changes, but it won't solve the problem of low rates and translators who charge them and accept them. Just think of the thousands of colleagues all over the world who are not registered with any translators' website or portal, who don't read these discussions and who are not aware of what's been happening. That's just one aspect of it - there are plenty of others to consider. I think it's up to translators themselves, eac... See more I think it's good that ProZ has reacted to the petition and is making some changes, but it won't solve the problem of low rates and translators who charge them and accept them. Just think of the thousands of colleagues all over the world who are not registered with any translators' website or portal, who don't read these discussions and who are not aware of what's been happening. That's just one aspect of it - there are plenty of others to consider. I think it's up to translators themselves, each one of us, to change things and to involve as many people from this multi-faceted industry as possible. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Calliope Sofianopoulos (X)
Australia
Local time: 04:22
Greek to English
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| No legally binding definition necessary... | Apr 3, 2010 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Dear colleagues,
you will forgive me if this post is meant to reply both to Calliope and Michael.
Point 1:
As per today, no legally binding definition of any (liberal) profession, status or whatever was able to prevent said professionals from serious errors, which found their roots either in ignorance or in gross negligence...
Just to clarify, there has been a long history around the world of the translation profession being unregulated, never having a legally binding definition. However, prices have never been as low as today! I am not in the least suggesting that a government body would resolve the problems created by private practices. That would be impossible, especially in the international/global market that translators work in.
If somebody founded a government body in Australia today that made it compulsory for translators to have professional training, never make a translation mistake and charge over 0.50 per source word for all translations, all Australian translators (and non-translators alike) would sign up on proz.com and work for international companies who are not bound by such regulations. On the same account, all Australian translation agencies would be seeking international translators via proz.com.
I am merely suggesting that proz.com created the problem that we are financing it to continue to create. Either reverse the systems that led to the problem, or translators should stop financing its existence. I certainly do not intend to pay a business to drive my fees into the ground, and I know a lot of translators who feel the same. If proz.com supports a system that makes it more profitable to be a translation agency, then let the agencies pay a membership fee to finance its existence. I personally refuse to pay them to shrink my income!
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 18:22
French to German
+ ...
| Who created the problem? | Apr 3, 2010 |
Calliope Sofianopoulos wrote:
I am merely suggesting that proz.com created the problem that we are financing it to continue to create. Either reverse the systems that led to the problem, or translators should stop financing its existence. I certainly do not intend to pay a business to drive my fees into the ground, and I know a lot of translators who feel the same. If proz.com supports a system that makes it more profitable to be a translation agency, then let the agencies pay a membership fee to finance its existence. I personally refuse to pay them to shrink my income!
Thanks for your clarifications, Calliope.
Just an example and some more ideas:
Back in 1998 (i. e. before ProZ was created), a French agency paid its freelancing translators at some FRF 0.55 ex VAT per source word. In 2010, twelve years later, this agency pays its freelancers at EUR 0.09 ex VAT (+ 7.14%, which is way below the overall inflation since 1998). What does ProZ - or any other portal for that matter - have to do with this?
How can any agency live - or rather survive - on end client rates between EUR 0.10 and 0.15? How come that in France, and owing to a newly created status, "anybody" with some business acumen can launch a translation agency, make some EUR 80,000 turnover per year and be exempted of VAT and "normal" social contributions?
I will not say that ProZ or other portals did not help shaping the current situation but, seen in a more global context, I rather tend to believe that many, many end clients see translation and translators as a necessary evil which will eventually cured by massive MT use... or the assignment of translations to outsourcers/outsourcees located in low-cost countries.
As an example, French native translators living in the ASEAN area are much more likely to get translation jobs than yours truly. And believe me, French kitchen-tables agencies (IOW: freelancers posing as main contractors) know where to look to extract work at starvation rates, thus making a benefit which is illegal at least in this country.
Why are such colleagues "allowed" to abuse job posting systems by accepting an offer posted on portal X and by re-outsourcing it on portal Y?
And how can one explain the fact that translators who have a de facto monopoly on their target language do not charge what they could or should?
[Edited at 2010-04-03 08:59 GMT]
| | | | Calliope Sofianopoulos (X)
Australia
Local time: 04:22
Greek to English
+ ...
| Who created the problem? | Apr 3, 2010 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
And believe me, French kitchen-tables agencies (IOW: freelancers posing as main contractors) know where to look to extract work at starvation rates, thus making a benefit which is illegal at least in this country.
And how can one explain the fact that translators who have a de facto monopoly on their target language do not charge what they could or should?
[Edited at 2010-04-03 08:56 GMT]
Exactly the point I've been trying to make in the Greek forums for years!!!
Ok, Greece is a country with a population of just over 10,000,000, maybe 12,000,000 total in the world speaking the language. How many translators of Greek can there be? We have the obvious advantage over all other countries in our own language pairs. Also, the cost of living in Greece is definitely higher than that in Australia and many other European countries. However, where my clients in Australia pay me approximately the equivalent of 60 Euro per page, their clients in Greece pay them 7 Euro for the same specialised legal translations! What is the difference? And, not taking into account specialisation and quality of work, why should my client be able to find dirt cheap translators in Greece to do the same job?
Also, why is it that, when confronted with an agency in India, the same translators reduce their prices to 2 Euros per page? Can they afford to work like that? Do they pay taxes on their income (a timely question if you've been watching European news)? Were these translators drinking coffee while they were translating? Did the cost of the translation cover the cost of the coffee consumed?
If you ask them they will answer "if I don't charge these prices I won't have any work - somebody will underbid me on proz.com and get the job and I'll be left with nothing". It is my opinion that they are left with LESS than nothing at the translation rates they charge.
Now, I'm not willing to continue to argue with that much ignorance. However, this is the ignorance that has made proz.com strong enough to lead the industry all these years. I must say, though, that trends are changing and those of us who are truly professional do not put up with this kind of attitude any more. Hence, the petition!
I must clarify that I did not sign the petition, only because I was not aware of it. Given the opportunity, I would have signed it and encouraged others to do the same.
So, to sum up, I repeat: If proz.com wants to make agencies richer and translators poorer, let the agencies pay the membership fees!
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 18:22
French to German
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| Membership fees | Apr 3, 2010 |
Calliope Sofianopoulos wrote:
So, to sum up, I repeat: If proz.com wants to make agencies richer and translators poorer, let the agencies pay the membership fees!
I agree: for some entities, the corporate membership fee is excessively low given the benefits they make out of this site.
| | | | Calliope Sofianopoulos (X)
Australia
Local time: 04:22
Greek to English
+ ...
| Membership fees | Apr 3, 2010 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
I agree: for some entities, the corporate membership fee is excessively low given the benefits they make out of this site.
I agree. And for most translators the membership fee is excessively high given their overall income due to this site's practices.
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--- due to this site's practices.
Let us not kill the messenger...
| | | | Calliope Sofianopoulos (X)
Australia
Local time: 04:22
Greek to English
+ ...
| No, lets not kill the messenger... | Apr 3, 2010 |
Sergei Tumanov wrote:
--- due to this site's practices.
Let us not kill the messenger...
Tell me, though, assuming that the messenger is proz.com and Henry, what is the message and who is sending it?
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| I'm for change, but disagree that translators should/can be price-setters and others price-takers | Apr 4, 2010 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
although rates won't be visible on the site, outsourcers are still permitted to specify their budget and "impose" rates, which is a market distortion... it just doesn't happen in any other industry...
OK. Long post warning. I've been watching the debate on this thread and elsewhere in ProZ, and have been wanting to toss in my views on the topic. Though the quote above is from Giovanni, I don't have a bone to pick with him personally. The view expressed in the quote is one held by hundreds of ProZians who have argued (if I understand the position correctly) that agencies should not be stating what they will pay for work to be done because they don't know or appreciate what translators need to charge. I don't agree 100% with this statement, though I agree that the compensation outsourcers offer seems insultingly low sometimes and something needs to be done to improve the situation. Though I could have posted my views on any of the other forums, for better or worse, I've submitting to the thread here. So here goes.
In every industry I know price is a function of what buyers and sellers are willing to accept. The market price is "what the market will bear". Buyers will take the best quality they can afford or care about. Sellers will take the best payment and conditions they can find. The outcome is more likely to be win-win when both sides have optimal (not necessarily maximum) information about the other. The ideal is for both to have equal information (so that neither side has excessive market power) but not so much information that price negotiations are stifled. I can't think of any healthy industry where the seller (any more than the buyer) sets the price unless there is some dysfunction in the market.
As a result, I frankly don't see how efforts to regulate the market on ProZ will cause buyers to pay more if they can't afford more or don't care to have better quality. And I'm not sure that ProZ can prevent sellers from holding out for better rates or chasing after whatever work is available.
But that doesn't mean I'm for keeping the status quo. Like other translators who use the ProZ jobs board, I do find it annoying and discouraging that some job posters, based on the low prices they offer, seem to have no understanding or regard for the labor of translation. So, I'd like to (a) try to raise awareness among outsourcers (not all of whom may be experienced agencies) and (b) change the jobs filtering process so that the parties waste lest time with jobs/applicants not of financial interest and there is more room for negotiation.
Instead of trying to see what controls we can put on the market to make it behave the way we want it to (in a global marketplace, I think this amounts to tilting an windmills), I vote for enhancements that will make buyers and sellers more knowledgeable and (cliche alert!) help level the playing field and stimulate the game when it comes to price negotiations. Thus, I would support changes on ProZ that:
1. Help outsourcers become more aware of what the translation process looks like from where the translator sits, and help translators understand what the process looks like from where the agencies sit. In the forums, I see a lot of venting that paints agencies as evil taskmasters whose only goal in life is to exploit the client and the translator. That's convenient, but I'm not sure it's that simple. Not only do translators need to be understood, but I think agencies do, too. Thus, ProZ could provide outsourcers (especially inexperienced ones) some guidelines to make them more aware of the volume and quality a translator can realistically produce on various types of jobs given certain kinds of tools and education, what proportion of a full-time freelancer's time is actually spent on paying work, and what minimums therefore are realistic in light of the going wage for that kind of competence/performance in certain countries/regions. Granted, this guidance could be nothing more than very general rules of thumb, but even something as basic as the following could stop job postings offering USD0.02/word: "Assume that your freelancer has a degree in translation or an advanced degree in another field, can process 2000 general business text words per day when the text is in an editable format like Microsoft Word and works on translation tasks (rather than marketing, training and admin tasks) 60% of weekdays in the year and wants to earn EURXX,XXX per year (as do individuals with similar education in his/her economy). Understand that if the translator's education is different, the text is more complicated, the format not editable, or other factors are in play, the rate may vary, but take this as your starting point." (This example is just to illustrate the idea. Numbers and variables would need to be decided with careful consideration.)
Meantime, translators could be come more aware of how outsourcers work and what considerations go into an agency's pricing and markup. I don't have that perspective myself (I have run an international business, but not in translation), but I know they do more than just stand between the translator and the end customer (assuming the outsourcer is not the end customer). They perform certain tasks so that translators and end customers don't have to.
Perhaps the above information already resides in a central place on ProZ. If so, I'm unaware of it. In any case, ProZ can help by consolidating this information in one place that is readily accessible from the job boards and by promoting the fact that the information is available. ProZ might even require all members using the job board to acknowledge that they have read the information and will conduct their business and themselves accordingly.
2. Require outsourcers to state **to ProZ** (but not necessarily to us) a price at which they are willing to enter negotiations (they would probably want to do this per job since budgets and requirements vary from job to job) and require the same of translators (the rates feature in the profile could be modified for this purpose, and as you will see below, my personal preference is that rates not be published). The parties could tell **ProZ** (not reveal to each other and all the world) what percentage up or down they are willing to deviate from the negotiation start price (to give both parties maximum matches from the jobs/translators database), but ProZ would not reveal the percentage to the parties (so that negotiations can proceed as freely as possible within the parties' elected limits). Thus, the upper/lower limits I'm talking about are only for purposes of the database, to be used as a filtering device to save time for both parties. Each negotiating party would only ever see his/her own. This is different from outright displaying a translator's rates in the translator profile or revealing an outsourcer's budget, neither of which I favor because revealing the top and bottom limits before negotiation starts pre-empts the negotiation; it encourages decisions to be made first and possibly only on price points that are set before either party has knowledge of the other's offer and capabilities, so true value never enters into the equation. In my perfect world, parties would only be introduced to each other (through the enhanced jobs engine) if they were in the same market (i.e., if there were overlap in their stated negotiating ranges), but neither party would reveal price before the candidate job had been presented and the job candidate had been presented. Whoever wants to be first to open the price negotiations can. And the parties can take it from there. Everyone will know that their time is less likely to be wasted because they already know that, thanks to the enhanced ProZ engine, their negotiating prices overlap at some point. And everyone will have the freedom to negotiate according to the particulars of the job and the parties discussing the job.
One might ask why leave the negotiation factor in? Why not eliminate it completely? I just feel that published prices or price ranges don't work very well in a market where text complexity and format, add-on services, currency fluctuations and a host of other things, even the mood of the moment, can produce pricing conditions that vary from job to job. In fact, I think that publishing pricing has contributed to the situation we're in. I think that requiring either outsourcers or translators to publish prices up front hamstrings both parties.
Assuming the changes I've described are introduced, then all outsourcers and translators would/should set their filters to receive only job notices associated with the rates in their negotiating range. They can do that now, but I'm not sure the filtering tool is as sophisticated as what I have in mind. The enhanced filtering would/should ensure that no one's time is wasted with communications from buyers/sellers not in the same market.
Now, to help both outsourcers and translators gauge how they compare to the overall ProZ marketplace, ProZ could display (to paying members only) a running summary of market trends showing the price range in which most buying/selling on ProZ is taking place with some analysis by region or type of work or some other variable. You would not have to show your prices to the rest of the community in order to see this trend information. Perhaps you would not even have to have submitted your own prices to ProZ. You could decide whether for your experience, expertise, country and language pair you want to raise or lower your price, but unless you can make a living working for low, low prices, you will probably set your prices at a level that will keep the mean/median/mode up.
I don't think it would take much for ProZ to provide the features I'm describing since they really just involve modifying existing features that capture similar information.
So, in summary, while I'm all for improving the efficiency of negotiations and the quality of negotiation outcomes, I don't agree that translators are the only parties to the transaction who have a right or the right perspective to determine what the buyer should pay. And I don't think the parties should be required to show their rates before they start discussion. However, I do think all parties need to be well-informed about the limitations on everyone, and negotiations should be allowed to take place in a way that gives buyers and sellers optimal flexibility to ask for what they want concerning a given project.
Thanks for letting me take so much airtime! I apologize for the length, but am glad that ProZ provides a place where we can express our views.
| | | | David Russi
United States
Local time: 11:22
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Why should I have to negotiate? | Apr 4, 2010 |
Deborah Workman wrote:
I vote for enhancements that will make buyers and sellers more knowledgeable and (cliche alert!) help level the playing field and stimulate the game when it comes to price negotiations.
You seem to think that negotiations are normal, that we translators should have to negotiate for every job they get. I do not; nor do lawyers, plumbers, carpenters, doctors, and millions of other professionals. Sure, there is variation in the fees they charge, and when times are tough they might lower their rates, but it is their choice and it is not a given. Ah, but we are different, we should lower our fees because nobody else can afford the fair cost of translation, times are tough, the client demands lower rates, and we have to pony up. And a lot of us have swallowed this malarkey, hook, line and sinker. Try telling your accountant her fee won't fit your budget, or your surgeon that the colon surgery is too expensive for you, and see just how far you get. So, why should translators different?
The reality is that over the years large agencies have bent over backwards to grow to huge status by swallowing competitors and bidding low, and then promising ever lower costs, for fear of losing their clients, often taking it out of the translators' hide, then using mass outsourcing as a practice to lower costs, including outright exploitation of local translators. Clients now expect to be able to continue lowering costs, and agencies have nowhere to go but us to find price cuts (I assure you managers still make good money). And make no mistake about it: a bidding (negotiating, if you prefer) marketplace can only bring rates down.
I, for one, am not interested in it: I have my rate, which is fair, and I do not feel I need to justify it every time I am offered a job.
[Edited at 2010-04-05 05:34 GMT]
| | | | Calliope Sofianopoulos (X)
Australia
Local time: 04:22
Greek to English
+ ...
| Why should I have to negotiate? | Apr 5, 2010 |
David Russi wrote:
I, for one, am not interested in it: I have my rate, which is fair, and I do not feel I need to justify it every time I am offered a job.
No, you shouldn't have to negotiate. If you ask translators why they prefer working for an agency, rather than the end client, they will tell you that the agency does the dirty work for them: they negotiate the terms and prices with the client so they don't have to spend their time negotiating. Translators would rather spend their time translating.
What happens instead? The translator negotiates for hours/days via email and phone with the AGENCY instead of with the end client.
Now, if we looked hard, we would see that there is still some use for translation agencies from the the large multinational end client's standpoint. If I were a government service looking to translate many hundreds of thousands of words into multiple languages, I would hardly make hundreds of phone calls until I put together a team of translators for many languages. However, from the translator's point of view, there is NO benefit whatsoever in this equation.
Guess what - from a negotiation perspective, project managers have it much easier with their clients than we have it with them. I have not met an end client who negotiates on my price. The conversation goes a bit like this:
- I need a Certificate translated but I need to submit it on Sunday.
- Ok, how about I post it to you on Thursday?
- That's fine. How much does it cost?
- $XX
- Great, what's your fax no or email address?
- XXX
- DONE!!!
I have yet to have such a straightforward conversation with a project manager, even with those I have worked with for years.
I know that with large government jobs things are a bit different - however, that's true in any industry. If a government agency requests tenders for anything, from translation to the construction of a new building, everybody in the industry starts to buzz. Unless you have a large pool of translators in multiple languages, it's a waste of time to send in a tender for your own language pairs. Hence the need for translation agencies.
Translators, however, receive no added value from this agreement. In order for a translation agency to get a large corporate or government job, they are competing against each other in a cut-throat market. Successful tenders are those of the lowest bidding parties and the funds allocated are bound to produce a juicy profit for the translation agency. So, who pays the price? The translation vendor - WE DO!
I know of many high-paying translation agencies that are being driven to the ground as a result of their good practices. They can't be successful in tenders because they try to pay their translators acceptable fees (US$0.20-0.30). That's the reason they don't have more work for us. The low-paying agencies get the jobs and we are still the ones that get to translate for them - just at a much lower rate.
Translators who work with low-paying translation agencies do not get any value from them, especially when we bid against each other on proz.com! If we realise this, then the rest is easy. If we don't bid on the 2 cent jobs, they will have to raise their prices. In the meantime, there are many end clients who would rather work directly with translators. Get your own websites for less money per year than you pay for your proz.com membership. Let the agencies pay membership fees since they are the ones reaping the rewards. Do not bid on jobs with insulting fees attached to them. We will ALL be better off for it. The only ones who may lose out will be the low-paying translation agencies and proz.com.
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