| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Chinese Kudoz Open Glossary Thread poster: Denyce Seow
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Chinoise 
Local time: 03:08
English to Chinese
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| Ja, Sie haben Recht... | Oct 25, 2006 |
Ich denke, daß Sie richtig sind .
Vielen Dank und gute Nacht, Wenjer.
Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
Chinoise wrote:
Ich habe das Wort gelernt...aber jetzt habe ich es vergessen.
Ich bin neugierig: Was bedeutet es? 
掉了個小 "s"，是 anpassungsfähig 才對。意思是：有適應能力的。
[Bearbeitet am 2006-10-25 18:51]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:08
English to Chinese
+ ...
Denyce,
I think your idea is a good one, but both average Kudoz points and total points should be shown. Otherwise, e.g., if someone answers only one question and gets 4 points, and then stops answering forever, his average points would remain at 4 point forever.
Technically, this is easy to be done.
Denyce Seow wrote:
Yueyin Sun wrote:
也有个别答题者凭拍脑袋抢答问题。拍对了，也许能蒙来一些分数，但别人却从中看到了他或她对待工作的态度。答题时都如此草率，你能指望他或她提供优质的翻译吗？
Some answerers answer almost all questions, hoping to be lucky and make a strike. However, they do not realise that although they might have many Kudoz points, their average Kudoz points (total Kudoz points divided by total number of questions answered) is lower than that of others. Personally, I feel that the Kudoz point system can be improved by showing the average Kudoz points intead of the total. What do you think?
Denyce
[Edited at 2006-10-26 04:19]
| | | | Xiaoping Fu
Canada
Local time: 23:08
Chinese to English
+ ...
遵照你的指示，把自己过去提的问题看了一遍。发现有很多答案没有输入 glossary 。惭愧！现在把它们全部输入进去了。顺便把忘记指明详细类别的也改正过来。现在是一片蓝色的 OK，看着挺舒服。:-)
今后知道该怎么做了。;-)
[Edited at 2006-10-26 03:51]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 02:08
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
1. An asker is entitled to ask any question he or she likes as long as the number of his questions is within his or her daily quota, and as long as he or she is not violating any other rules (for example, the rule of no racial questions. We needn't care about it because the system will restrict someone from asking too many questions.
2. An answerer can choose to answer as many questions as he or she likes. If you don't want the site to be boring, there shouldn't be any measures take... See more 1. An asker is entitled to ask any question he or she likes as long as the number of his questions is within his or her daily quota, and as long as he or she is not violating any other rules (for example, the rule of no racial questions. We needn't care about it because the system will restrict someone from asking too many questions.
2. An answerer can choose to answer as many questions as he or she likes. If you don't want the site to be boring, there shouldn't be any measures taken to restrict an answerer.
3. The more serious problem is that sometimes the asker is not able to select an valid answer. This might be an area in which something could be done. This reality makes it really unfair to "average" someone's point.
4. Most of the questions are extremely context-based. When you move a term or a concept out of the context, it doesn't make a lot of sense. A glossary created out of such questions is quite doubtable. The glossary would end up containing 3 types of entries: 1) terms that are easily available in dictionaries. 2) Mis-interpreted terms because of the wrong selection by the asker. 3). terms that can never find use for themselves when they are taken out of the exact context.
5. Again about the "average" idea: The more someone answers questions, the more probable that he or she will be averaged down, simply because he or she exposes him or herself more to being unfairly turned down for his or her correct answers. From what Yueyin pointed out, I can assume that he would also agree that the less someone answers questions, the higher his or her average point could be. This discourages the answerers.
6. We occasionally see people answer a lot of questions, as Denyce has pointed out. Again, as long as he or she is not joking, you should give him or her 100% freedom to express their opinions. "Fingers are not equally long". Some people, just because of lack of experience( junior translators), or because of a different type of thinking, would least likely to provide a correct answer. This is caused by their own weakness. But you cannot block any one from answering questions simply because they are weak in one aspect or another. I think their enthusiam is praiseworthy and it is also a process for them to learn. So, a system of " averaging" the point would be discouraging for them.
7. An averaged Kudoz point can also be misleading. Suppose we use a percentage system. What percentage of correct Kudoz answers makes a good translator? Some outsourcers may misunderstand it. They would think if an answerers cannot get 80% of the questions correctly, he or she is not reliable. Some PMs may even think all my god, if he only gets 60% correct, he will make mistakes in 40% of the text I would otherwise assign him or her to do. How dare I give him or her a job?
I am not joking. There are such PMs.
Then everybody of us will become unqualified for a translation job except for a few, including Sun Yueyin and Fu xiaoping.
The whole idea of averaging the points should be based on the fact that every asker should be able to make a valid and sense-making ( forgive me for creating this word here) selection of answers. If this can not be achieved, it is unfair to the answerers.
[Edited at 2006-10-26 04:15]
[Edited at 2006-10-26 04:16]
[Edited at 2006-10-26 04:19] ▲ Collapse
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David Shen
United States
Local time: 23:08
English to Chinese
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jyuan_us wrote:
my THOUGHTS
1/2/3/4/5/6/7.
May I share your wonderful thoughts on KudoZ Glossary?
No restriction to asker or answerer.
Some regulation to the entry into the "Master Glossary" of a selected answer as "THE correct/established/official term" . If the asker had no idea what the term meant to start with, it is likely that he may not have enough whatever to know which is the best answer provided. This is when a community effort is needed to vote for the best answer on a question that attracts many answers. When the asker makes an obviously wrong or second choice, the community should have a say.
Agree to everything you said in the above post.
[Edited at 2006-10-26 05:05]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:08
English to Chinese
+ ...
jyuan_us wrote:
3. The more serious problem is that sometimes the asker is not able to select an valid answer. This might be an area in which something could be done. This reality makes it really unfair to "average" someone's point.
Statistically speaking, I believe most of the selected answers are justifiable. With the askers' judgment plus the "agrees" and "disagrees" of peers, the percentage of the cases when "the asker is not able to select a valid answer" will not be high.
jyuan_us wrote:
From what Yueyin pointed out, I can assume that he would also agree that the less someone answers questions, the higher his or her average point could be. This discourages the answerers.
Not definitely, if someone answers only one question and failed, his average points would be zero. To present a fair picture, I suggested above that "both average KudoZ points and total points should be shown".
jyuan_us wrote:
Then everybody of us will become unqualified for a translation job except for a few, including Sun Yueyin and Fu xiaoping.
I don't think KudoZ points or their average would have such a significant influence on PM's selection. KudoZ points are not my incentive to answer questions. In fact, I don't rely on ProZ.com jobs at all. As I mentioned before, I only bid once at ProZ.com and my bid was rejected because my reasonable price was "beyond their budget". It seems to me that many outsourcers came to ProZ.com to post their "premium jobs" with minimum budgets.
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 14:08
English to Chinese
+ ...
Yueyin Sun wrote:
相信群众
Jyuan_us 的觀察和意見大體上可以檢驗，要仔細談來會很費時間。我只想順著樂音的看法說說。
翻譯的需求原本出自於人群互動，因此翻譯的正確與否是以人群的相互主觀性為判準，事實上並無所謂的客觀性。能夠達到翻譯文本所要達到的目的，某種程度上來說就是好的翻譯。因此，提問者選擇答題者的詞條可以是完全主觀的，他當然可能選錯，如同答題者可能在缺乏背景知識下提出並不特別恰當的回答一樣。
不過，答題者即使答對了，或答得接近了，選擇答案畢竟還是提問者的裁決，不能保證沒有主觀意識影響選擇。答題者自己心裡要有個譜，無論你盡多大努力，尋求多精確的答案，提問者可能私下利用了你的答案，但就是不會給你好顏色。
這樣的情況其實也無妨，因為翻譯既然是應群眾之需而生，很自然在群眾之間會產生相互的主觀判斷。什麼樣的答案是群眾所能接受的，其實大家看得見，即使不表意見，也同樣人人會有評斷。
In my opinion, those outsourcers who look for translators with KudoZ high scores must be the ones who do not really understand the language pairs in which they are operating. An outsourcer must be someone who knows both languages of a language pair well enough to have a close look of and make his/her own judgement of the performances of the translators who play KudoZ in the pair.
In short, KudoZ is not an arena where the translator gladiators fight to the end. What for is it to have points accumulated? What for is it to introduce a hit rate?
The best translators I''ve met in ProZ.com are those who ask only when necessary and who answer without thinking of the points can be earned. They interact and behave.
如果 KudoZ 積分和命中率成為競爭的標竿，那才真正可悲！最終審判翻譯者能力的還是群眾，所以我相信群眾，因為群眾看到的不只是誰問答了多少題、答對了多少比例，而是翻譯者對待其他同仁的態度，從那個態度可以推論翻譯者的工作態度。選擇合作的翻譯者，主要是以那個態度為判準，KudoZ 積分和命中率只是參考，並非主要考量。不懂這個道理的尋才者，保證不用多久就會嚐到苦果。尋才者肯花時間在 KudoZ 上考察翻譯者的真正表現，保證找到的翻譯者各個都會是可靠的工作伙伴。
Jyuan_us 提到翻譯者藏拙的問題，其實那也是考察的重點之一。率性的翻譯者的表現，有時看來像是粗枝大葉，但卻因此比較容易判斷他們真正的功底，讓人曉得他們適合做哪些種類文本的翻譯工作，採用時要幫他們留意些什麼，知道他們可以與什麼樣的翻譯者搭配，因此會使 QA 工作容易些。那些生怕犯錯或自信滿滿的翻譯者，反倒是尋才者的顧忌，因為一方面他們的質量無法評估，另一方面他們與人合作互動的態度絕對會出問題，在某些需要協調的項目裡有那樣的成員，保證項目砸鍋。這也是我經常鼓勵年輕人不要害怕犯錯，不必藏拙，盡量表現自己的理解和表達，別人看得見，也知道如何選用。市場大得很，每個人都能找到恰當的定位。
KudoZ 不是整個人生。相較於人生，甚至可說是一點都不重要。不值得為了積分或被選用的命中率傷感情。
| | | | Denyce Seow
Singapore
Local time: 14:08
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
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Denyce Seow
Singapore
Local time: 14:08
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER | Thanks for sharing your thoughts | Oct 26, 2006 |
Hi jyuan,
Thanks for taking the time to share with us your thoughts. You showed us another perspective of the situation. Please allow me to say a few things too:
jyuan_us wrote:
1. An asker is entitled to ask any question he or she likes as long as the number of his questions is within his or her daily quota, and as long as he or she is not violating any other rules.
I agree. A registered member can ask 15 questions a day or 60 questions a week; an unregistered member can ask 5 questions a day or 20 questions a week.
jyuan_us wrote:
2. An answerer can choose to answer as many questions as he or she likes.
Agree too! However, sometimes I wished answerers could give more information or explanations.
jyuan_us wrote:
3. The more serious problem is that sometimes the asker is not able to select an valid answer.
Sorry, but I'm not sure what you are referring to. Can you please elaborate on this?
jyuan_us wrote:
4. When you move a term or a concept out of the context, it doesn't make a lot of sense.
I agree with this. After locating a term in the glossary, an user should also go through the discussion to see if it fits his/her context. A clue to the context of the term would be the field indicated. Hence, askers are encouraged to be as specific as possible in indicating the field of their questions.
jyuan_us wrote:
5. Again about the "average" idea: The more someone answers questions, the more probable that he or she will be averaged down, simply because he or she exposes him or herself more to being unfairly turned down for his or her correct answers.
I understand what you mean. Unfortunately, "unfair grading" is not something we can control. If there is anything others can do to help the asker in making the right decision, that is through the peer's comment function. I noticed in our Chinese community, people are reluctant to give "disagree" or even "neutral". In this way, we somehow compromise the quality of our answers to a certain degree. In other language communities, people are more free with giving "disagree" and "neutral". As a result, answerers are more careful with giving answers and more motivated to provide support for their answers. I understand that most of us do not want to give "disagree" or "neutral" for fear of confrontation. However, it is really a good practice. If we disagree with an answer, give a "disagree" and provide your reasons. In the end, this will help everybody.
jyuan_us wrote:
6. But you cannot block any one from answering questions simply because they are weak in one aspect or another. I think their enthusiam is praiseworthy and it is also a process for them to learn. So, a system of " averaging" the point would be discouraging for them.
Well said. Even wrong answers are part of the learning process. When I first came to Kudoz, I was not familiar with researching terms. After some time, I learned tricks and knew where to look for sources. I also observed how others tackled the source sentence/term. It was a whole learning process for me.
Denyce
[Edited at 2006-10-26 08:15]
[Edited at 2006-10-26 08:16]
| | | | Denyce Seow
Singapore
Local time: 14:08
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER | 相信群众 -- Yes!! | Oct 26, 2006 |
Yueyin Sun wrote:
Statistically speaking, I believe most of the selected answers are justifiable. With the askers' judgment plus the "agrees" and "disagrees" of peers, the percentage of the cases when "the asker is not able to select a valid answer" will not be high.
Unfortunately, we don't get many "disagree" or even "neutral". Like I mentioned above in response to jyuan's posting, people are afraid of confrontation. To be honest, I am afraid of putting "disagree" too because I had a few bad experience with it. Somehow they all led to tension. However, I believe this is a good practice. It should be a good thing if someone points out your mistake and helps you improve. Of course, give your "disagree" with a comment, especially one that is constructive.
Denyce
| | | | clearwater
China
Local time: 14:08
English to Chinese
| Take it easy | Oct 26, 2006 |
Denyce Seow wrote:
Yueyin Sun wrote:
Statistically speaking, I believe most of the selected answers are justifiable. With the askers' judgment plus the "agrees" and "disagrees" of peers, the percentage of the cases when "the asker is not able to select a valid answer" will not be high.
Unfortunately, we don't get many "disagree" or even "neutral". Like I mentioned above in response to jyuan's posting, people are afraid of confrontation. To be honest, I am afraid of putting "disagree" too because I had a few bad experience with it. Somehow they all led to tension. However, I believe this is a good practice. It should be a good thing if someone points out your mistake and helps you improve. Of course, give your "disagree" with a comment, especially one that is constructive.
Denyce
其实，我倒觉得这没什么好害怕的。我们应当立场鲜明，该同意的时候就要同意（但也不要在张三李四王五的答案明明不同的情况下，都来个Agree，那有讨好人之嫌），该反对的时候就要反对。我一般不会随便来个Disagree，除非是在确信对方的答案有误的情况下，才会表明自己的看法，尽管这可能会招致对方的不快。当然，我会尽可能详细地说明反对理由。惟一的目的就是不想让错误的解答误导众人（当然，这绝非Answerer的本意，只是有时资料来源不可靠所致）。我相信，只要心胸坦然、讲究务实的人都会欢迎别人为自己指正的。毕竟，我们来此的最主要目的是求知，而不是其他。
| | | | Denyce Seow
Singapore
Local time: 14:08
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER | Thanks, clearwater!! | Oct 26, 2006 |
Hi all,
After thanking Mr Fu this morning, I have someone else to thank for his support, and that is our clearwater!! The questions that he closed yesterday and today were "glossed". THANK YOU, clearwater! Thanks (x10).
I'm glad people are giving so positive responses. The only thing I can do in return is to do my best and make your whole Kudoz experience better! ... See more
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ysun
United States
Local time: 01:08
English to Chinese
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clearwater wrote:
其实，我倒觉得这没什么好害怕的。我们应当立场鲜明，该同意的时候就要同意（但也不要在张三李四王五的答案明明不同的情况下，都来个Agree，那有讨好人之嫌），该反对的时候就要反对。我一般不会随便来个Disagree，除非是在确信对方的答案有误的情况下，才会表明自己的看法，尽管这可能会招致对方的不快。当然，我会尽可能详细地说明反对理由。惟一的目的就是不想让错误的解答误导众人（当然，这绝非Answerer的本意，只是有时资料来源不可靠所致）。我相信，只要心胸坦然、讲究务实的人都会欢迎别人为自己指正的。毕竟，我们来此的最主要目的是求知，而不是其他。
If you look at KudoZ section in the English>English community at ProZ.com, you will see that they often post their "disagree" very frankly. It seems they are more active than we are in our community.
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 14:08
English to Chinese
+ ...
Yueyin Sun wrote:
If you look at KudoZ section in the English>English community at ProZ.com, you will see that they often post their "disagree" very frankly. It seems they are more active than we are in our community.
樂音兄，也許是面子問題吧？一般我也只給人 neutral 表示意見，不太願意給 disagree，除非錯得離譜。此外，有些答案方向已經對了，只是措辭上稍微不那麼恰當，要不自己提出更精確的答案，就是給個 agree 並表意見，以免讓人有搶分數的感覺。
那種大剌剌，在別人已有正確答案後提出第五級修正答案的做法，肯定不討喜。尤其別人幫了忙，給了雖不完美但意思正確的答案，提問者只需調整該答案即可應用在他手上文本上，若提問者還要批評他的答案，肯定讓人不舒服。
凡此種種的情況，在英文、德文、西班牙文的社群裡都有激烈的討論。但他們的方式比較開誠布公。我們的文化在這類的討論上則比較有顧忌些。比方說，語言精通的問題；我從來不相信自己精通中文，當然也不可能相信自己精通任何語文，所以答題時總會有些保留。或者，在論壇裡貼文，使用的語文，即使是中文，也可能仍有瑕疵。因此，某種顧忌是必要的。
KudoZ 最大的作用，在我看來，是互相學習，而且能學習的不僅是翻譯的技巧，還有做人的道理。依我的經驗，當初到德文社群時，有些人蠻不客氣對我攻擊，我一點都不退縮，最後得到的是尊敬，那些攻擊者之中有某些成為我的合作者，目前我有許多業務都是從當初不打不相識的那些人來的。
每個人來 ProZ.com 的目的不同。有人可能只求方便，翻譯時在 KudoZ 上貼出一些問題讓同仁幫忙解答，不滿意答案時還可以打打官腔以表示自己的功底。有人可能像我一樣，純粹做生意，尋找可靠的合作伙伴。這兩種人在社群裡的表現，當然會是截然不同的。其間會有各種不同目的的混合，表現的態度當然也因此千萬種。所幸社群的寬容度很大，什麼樣的態度都容得下。
不過，每個文化裡都有某些規矩，某些非常基本的顧忌是必要的；犯那些顧忌，包管吃不了兜著走。我覺得最有意思的是，斷章取義、移花接木，或是利用權勢地位的差異玩弄操作小圈圈，遇上功力夠強的人，那才有好戲看。
(後記：曾經收到某個語文的兩個不同版主來信，兩人表達的立場很是不同，但最後那位和善的退場了；那個事件給我很大的啟發：好人總是吃虧些。不過，我會紀念的不會是壞人，而是那個退場的好人，建立合作關係的也是那個退場的好人。在 ProZ.com 各個不同的社群裡，我得到的好處非常多，甚至由於在俄文社群貼文求解幾次後，竟然來了許多不是由俄文譯入中文或反過來的生意，有幾家專做俄羅斯生意的業者找上門來請求協助解決牽涉到中文的問題；這樣的生意佔我的營業額 2%~5%，已經不算少了。總之，KudoZ 絕對不只是問答的積分和答案受選的比例，在 KudoZ 問答的態度表現也可以檢驗翻譯者適應環境的能力。翻譯是人的事業，所以聰明的業者會尋找適應人群能力強的人為他們解決問題，不一定選擇強勢者，也不一定選擇低價者。)
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:08
English to Chinese
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这大概就是东西方文化的区别吧。说实话，应当"disagree"时，我往往也是"neutral"，中庸之道。
Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
Yueyin Sun wrote:
If you look at KudoZ section in the English>English community at ProZ.com, you will see that they often post their "disagree" very frankly. It seems they are more active than we are in our community.
樂音兄，也許是面子問題吧？一般我也只給人 neutral 表示意見，不太願意給 disagree，除非錯得離譜。此外，有些答案方向已經對了，只是措辭上稍微不那麼恰當，要不自己提出更精確的答案，就是給個 agree 並表意見，以免讓人有搶分數的感覺。
那種大剌剌，在別人已有正確答案後提出第五級修正答案的做法，肯定不討喜。尤其別人幫了忙，給了雖不完美但意思正確的答案，提問者只需調整該答案即可應用在他手上文本上，若提問者還要批評他的答案，肯定讓人不舒服。
凡此種種的情況，在英文、德文、西班牙文的社群裡都有激烈的討論。但他們的方式比較開誠布公。我們的文化在這類的討論上則比較有顧忌些。比方說，語言精通的問題；我從來不相信自己精通中文，當然也不可能相信自己精通任何語文，所以答題時總會有些保留。或者，在論壇裡貼文，使用的語文，即使是中文，也可能仍有瑕疵。因此，某種顧忌是必要的。
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