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Jun 12, 2020 11:52
4 yrs ago
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French term

avant ou après l'adhésion pour sa part

French to English Law/Patents Insurance beneficiaries in life insurance policy
Naming of beneficiaires in life insurance contracts.

La clause bénéficiaire du contrat XXX/YYY n'était pas modifiée, et restait "par parts égales mes enfants nés ou à naiître, à défaut de l'un décédé avant ou après l'adhésion pour sa part, ses descendants, à défaut les survivants à défaut mes héritiers"

My rendering of the part in inverted commas:
“by equal shares, my children born or to be born, in the case of death of one before or after acceptance of their share, their descendants, in the absence of survivors, to my heirs and persons entitled.

In this context I am assuming that "adhésion" means "acceptance"

This appears to be a standard clause in French life insurance contracts but I can't find any exact equivalence in English. I would be grateful for any remarks.
Proposed translations (English)
5 +3 if (/in case) one of them has died, before or after I subscribed (to this insurance), then ...
4 before or after issuance, as to his/her share,
4 -1 pre- or post-consent (assent) in respect of his or her share
3 -1 before or after his or her adherence
3 -2 who might die before or after joining for his/her part
3 -5 before or after the support or membership for his or her part

Discussion

Daryo Jun 17, 2020:
@SafeTex what is "obvious" to me is that a "right answer" arrived to by pure luck / with a wrong explanation is in fact NOT helping much.

It's not for nothing that an explanation is required for proposed translations - the explanation IS PART OF the answer. It can help those reading the questions/answers months or years later to decide to which extent the questions/answer is relevant to their texts - and anyway would you want to use a dictionary with whimsical explanations, that might have or might not any any connection with the meaning of the word as used in the specific context? Kudoz is supposed to be a "glossary building exercise" ...

IOW it's rather the idea that "explanations do not matter" than I would find extremely problematic.
mrrafe Jun 17, 2020:
adhesion again Reytturning to this after a long break, I just realized FR "adhere/adhesion" in insurance not only is unrelated to any concept of unjust contracts as in EN, but also is probably related etymologically and functionally to EN intransitive verb "attach," which refers to the moment of formation of a legal relationship. I.e., when the legal state of affairs comes into existence, the relationship attaches.

So the FR isn't that far off from the EN: when the policy adheres (adhesion), it takes effect.

Sorry I didn't realize this initially, but in EN law "attach" in this sense seems pretty archaic.
SafeTex Jun 17, 2020:
@ Daryo Except that disagreeing with a right answer, however it was arrived at, is problematic on this forum for obvious reasons, especially if you then go and agree with another answer instead !!!
Why not just give it an agree but with a comment instead?
Daryo Jun 17, 2020:
@ph-b A clarification: In my rulebook the right answer is NOT enough if the accompanying explanation / underlying reasoning is wrong. Smacks of getting it right by pure accident, and "getting it right by accident" doesn't sound to me like a method to recommend. Most people may not care much about it, but points of methodology are mon dada favori ... The process is what leads to results, so improving the process is important.

Specifically, in case od Kudoz questions - the first step is to question the question itself i.e. ignore the formulation of the question and look at the Source Text. Occasionally you find that the way the question is formulated is an open trap / an invitation to crash in the nearest tree ...
ph-b (X) Jun 14, 2020:
Eliza, A French life insurance policy will cover you from the date on which the company says it is on risk. It can be the date of issue or any other date the company specifies, for whatever reason (special circumstances, etc.) That date appears in the policy which you have accepted by subscribing to it. Again, I agree with your and Daryo's reading (not sure why he disagrees with you), except for the definition of the date on which the co is on risk (date the policy is issued? signed? takes effect?), and, therefore, the date that will decide if and when the proceeds are split among the deceased beneficiary's heirs. But zac will know as the inception date must appear in her/his doc.

I agree with Daryo's answer because "subscribe" (as in: "accept the policy and its conditions") is closer to adhésion than your "issuance".

Re: your Moniteur ref. Have you checked when they stopped publishing it? In any case, your example is about a mutual ins co and what they say here is that by subscribing to their policy, you also subscribe (adhésion) to the statutes of the mutual ins co - that's how mutual ins cos work, as you know. That is not what zac's text and question are about.
Eliza Hall Jun 13, 2020:
PS: Why it matters how life insurance works The reason I'm asking if French life insurance is typically guaranteed-issue is because "adhésion" is the act by which an insurance contract comes into existence:

"Le fait de remettre, à une société mutuelle, un bulletin d'adhésion dûment signé, après avoir pris connaissance de ses statuts, constitue envers la Société, une adhésion formelle aux dits statuts, laquelle a pour effet de lier définitivement le nouveau sociétaire à la Société..." (Le Moniteur des assurances: revue mensuelle, Volume 37 p.695 -- cf. Google Books).

So what this clause means is that if the named beneficiary dies before or after a binding insurance contract comes into existence--IOW the beneficiary dies before the person being insured and the insurance company have completed the process of "lier définitivement" the insured person "à la Société d'assurance," or at any time afterwards--then that beneficiary's share shall be distributed as stated in the clause.

That's the concept we're looking for. Policy issuance covers it in US English, since that's the process that culminates in a binding insurance contract between the parties. What's the UK equivalent?
Eliza Hall Jun 13, 2020:
@Ph-B #2 At least in the US, with a few exceptions, life insurance isn't something you can just decide to "adhérer" to. The insurer will require a medical examination first, in order to decide whether to insure you. (This is how one unfortunate family friend discovered that he had advanced cancer -- the medical exam found it; the insurer refused to cover him for that reason; he died).

So it is a multi-step process: You apply, they schedule a medical exam for you, the test results come in, and then depending on the test results they either cover you as agreed, offer less coverage or a higher price, or refuse to cover you. The point at which they accept you (or they offer worse insurance and you accept it) is critical, because without it there's no policy, no policy date, etc.

Some employers offer guaranteed-issue life insurance policies. Most don't. What's the situation in France? Is life insurance guaranteed-issue, or can insurers refuse you? I ask because that will help us determine what exactly "adhésion" is in the life-insurance context (not just the general insurance context.
Eliza Hall Jun 13, 2020:
@Ph-B I'm not following what you've said here: that "adhésion is simply a synonym for garantie." The link you posted doesn't say that, and "garantie" in the insurance context isn't something you do; it's the coverage you get under the policy:
"Les garanties sont les engagements que prend votre assureur vis à vis de vous. Elles sont énumérées dans votre police d'assurance." https://www.luko.eu/dictionnaire-assurance/definition-garant...
ph-b (X) Jun 13, 2020:
I agree with Eliza's reasoning, but not with her translation.

Life insurance has its own terminology, in French anyway, and adhésion is simply a synonym for garantie in other classes of insurance: “Acte par lequel une personne adhère... par la signature d’un bulletin d’adhésion.” (https://www.carac.fr/lexique/adhesion). So this is indeed about the beneficiary’s share in the (proceeds of the) deceased’s life insurance policy.

However, in terms of translation, the date on which a policy is issued (especially a life policy) is not necessarily the same as its inception date and “issuance” or “date of issue” can be misleading: “The issue date is normally the date on which the insurance company approves and accepts your application. The policy date is the date written on the policy. These two are sometimes the same, but… The effective date is the date on which the legal obligation by the insurance company is created.” (https://law.freeadvice.com/insurance_law/life_insurance_law/...

I would suggest that the effective date (adhésion) is what matters in your case, but this needs to be clarified with the client.
SafeTex Jun 12, 2020:
bequeathment ? Hello
Looking at the discussion and disagrees about "adhésiion", I wonder if "bequeathment" could be used?
Eliza Hall Jun 12, 2020:
I agree with MrRafe and others that "pour sa part" is referring to a share (of life insurance proceeds) and doesn't mean "on their part."

But in the insurance context, "adhésion" happens when the insurance company approves your application and issues the policy. It has nothing to do with the consent or acceptance of your beneficiaries. It's also a "faux ami" to the EN legal term "contract of adhesion." Unlike that EN legal term, there is no negative connotation to "adhésion" in a FR insurance contract.
mrrafe Jun 12, 2020:
adhesion I don't see that Tony's reading differs from Asker's. We all seem to agree that someone receives an actual "part"and the policy isn't talking just idiomatically about "on his part."

Having said that, I agree with Asker that acceptance is the nearest EN equivalent. The validity and scope of acceptance can become disputed should there occur adhesion in the EN sense where the EN word connotes potentially objectionable exploitation of one party by the other, but EN (in USA at least) does not presume adhesion in the normal course of honest offer and acceptance. I.e., adhesion conveys a whiff of corruption among EN speakers but not in libertine FR.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/adhesion-contract.asp

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/pf/06/insurancecontrac...

Proposed translations

+3
1 day 16 hrs
French term (edited): à défaut de l'un décédé avant ou après l'adhésion pour sa part, ses descendants
Selected

if (/in case) one of them has died, before or after I subscribed (to this insurance), then ...

à défaut de l'un décédé avant ou après l'adhésion pour sa part, ses descendants
=
if (/in case) one of them has already died, before or after I subscribed (to this life insurance), then his/her share [of the insurance payment] will go to (/ will be divided amongst) his/her descendants (/ heirs?)


you have to look at the whole of:

"à défaut de l'un décédé avant ou après l'adhésion pour sa part, ses descendants"

and start by slicing it the right way:

2- "à défaut de l'un décédé (avant ou après l'adhésion)" + "pour sa part, ses descendants",

IOW

IF this situation occurs: "à défaut de l'un décédé (avant ou après l'adhésion)"

THEN this will be done: "pour sa part, ses descendants"


les bénéficiaires [de la présente assurance-vie] seront:

"par parts égales

1- mes enfants nés ou à naître,

2- à défaut de l'un décédé avant ou après l'adhésion pour sa part, ses descendants,

3- à défaut les survivants à défaut mes héritiers"

=>

2- "à défaut de l'un [de mes enfants nés ou à naître] décédé avant ou après l'adhésion [par moi à cette assurance]" + "pour sa part [=la part de cet enfant prédécédé], ses descendants [en seront les bénéficiaires]",

=>

IF a the time of my death one of my children is already dead, no matter if that child of mine was dead before or after I subscribed to the present life insurance, THEN the share of that child of mine (share of the insurance payment) will go to his/her descendants.


This is in fact quite similar to general inheritance rules. The share of inheritance of predeceased heirs goes to their own heirs.

CL5++ about the meaning, wording could be varied.
Note from asker:
Thank you so much for your detailed reply. I certainly didn't split up the sentance in the right way and stretched the meaning of "adhésion" knowing full well that it usually meant subscription in an insurance context. Also thanks to Tony M. and ph-b for being so quick in confirming my doubts and putting me on the right track.
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M : Hooray! That's the way I suggested Asker should view it ages ago.
41 mins
Thanks!
agree ph-b (X) : I agree in that "subscribed" is closer to the F than "issuance". If you subscribe, you agree to the effective date mentioned in the policy. See previous post in discussion box.
1 hr
Merci!
agree AllegroTrans
7 hrs
Thanks!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks for the input from all answerer, in particular Tony M and ph-b"
-2
1 hr

who might die before or after joining for his/her part

...failing one who might die before or after joining for his part.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Eliza Hall : In EN you don't "join" a life-insurance policy. Also, this "pour sa part" means "as to his/her share."
6 hrs
disagree Daryo : makes no sense - stating the blindingly obvious makes no difference - everyone WILL die for sure (there is no "might")- especially if the period when it "might" happen is "either before or after" whatever is the event / date.
1 day 13 hrs
agree SafeTex : Are you sure you have joined the right language pair? This is French into English here, not gobbledygook!
1 day 18 hrs
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : "joining for his/her part" is nonsense here
2 days 1 hr
Something went wrong...
-1
1 hr

pre- or post-consent (assent) in respect of his or her share

par parts égales: *in* rather than by equal shares.

in respect of: a lawspeak - my previous Paris/ Madrid law firm's copout where it is unclear whether there is an outright acceptance of or on behalf of s.o. else..

Note that, routinely as Yours Truly has often mentioned, assent means consent here whilst can, confusingly in probate / (Scots) letters of confirmation, assenting of a gift to an heir/ress can mean the vesting of a share of an inheritance, either in the PRs - personal reps. as executors themselves themselves or from them on to the rightful heirs (beneficiaries).

Note also that an insurance beneficiary nomination takes place outside of any Will or in 'English' dehors the Will.
Example sentence:

By making a revocable nomination, the policyholder will be free to change, add or remove beneficiaries without the beneficiaries’ consent.

Reference:

http://eng.proz.com/personal-glossaries/entry/18096409-toute-commande-passée-implique-

http://www.pruadviser.co.uk/pdf/P428802.pdf

Peer comment(s):
disagree Eliza Hall : Consent is not an issue here. See explanation in my proposed translation.
6 hrs
Consent *is* an issue as the beneficiaries may, for tax etc. reasons, refuse the nomination, plus the 'issuance' of a contrat d'adhésion - as a standard. take-it-or-leave-it contract - has nowt to do with this scenario. Better you refer to my explanation.
Something went wrong...
8 hrs

before or after issuance, as to his/her share,

In Fr, an application for life insurance is a "demande d'adhésion " or "bulletin d'adhésion":

https://www.aptalumni.org/in/in_paris-grignon/images/CNP/Bul...

The application form is where you indicate who your beneficiaries will be, using the language that Zac is translating here (see page 2 of the above link).

There is a delay between the time you submit the application and the time the insurance company issues the policy. It's possible that a beneficiary you chose on the application could die during that time (avant l'adhésion). It's also possible they could die after the policy issues, but before you die (après l'adhésion).

The language Zac is translating says who gets their share of your life insurance ("pour sa part") if they die before or after policy issuance.
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M : Thank goodness someone else sees it the same way as I do!
1 min
:) thanks!
disagree Adrian MM. : issuance, like 'vacation' of judgment, is another meaningless US Am term in the context of a UK asker (as per profile) & could refer to the issue of the policy, whereas the nominated beneficiaries are joining in the scheme. Pls. read my answer *carefully*
1 hr
The beneficiaries aren't joining in anything. The term to be translated comes from the beneficiary designation clause that the insured used to designate who would receive money upon his/her death.
neutral ph-b (X) : Agree with the reasoning, but not with the translation. See discussion.
10 hrs
agree Suzie Withers
15 hrs
neutral AllegroTrans : right idea but 'issuance' is not used in UK insurance terminology
17 hrs
disagree Daryo : wrong interpretation of the ST // the question contains fragments of TWO separate parts of that clause, so THAT needs to be fixed first.
1 day 7 hrs
Something went wrong...
-5
6 hrs

before or after the support or membership for his or her part

I checked 'adhésion' in my dictionary and found 'membership' and 'support' both to be the definitions.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 days (2020-06-17 15:54:23 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

After more consideration the following is a more appropriate translation: "before or after taking out the guarantee with respect to his or her share"
"avant ou après son adhésion pour sa part".
A true definition of adhesion is 'joining together' or 'staying with', which could be about family members remaining together in support of one another. Nonetheless, those with expertise in the field of wills, inheritance and insurance are adamant that it is not appropriate in this case among professionals. Words such as 'assent' meaning consent and 'issuance' (which is another unknown word to me, as I wonder if it could be American) are not exactly part of 'adhesion'.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Eliza Hall : Not in this case. Neither of those words is normally used in discussing the beneficiaries under a life-insurance policy.
2 hrs
Instead of 'membership or support' as a definition, 'guarantee' is another possibility. I'll remember to not consider 'adhésion' as 'membership' or 'support' when writing about insurance, though it may be concerning loyalty of the heirs to their lost one
disagree AllegroTrans : you still will not grasp the notion that looking up single words in a dictionary is not the way to translate terms and phrases in specific CONTEXTS
21 hrs
disagree Daryo : IF it was enough to look at the first meaning given by a dictionary NONE OF US would be here and Proz would have been redundant - we would have been ALL replaced by Machine Translation about 50 years ago. // Yes, that's how long they keep trying ...
1 day 9 hrs
disagree SafeTex : Don't you ever read your own answers or sample sentences and think to yourself "what the hell does that mean" ?
1 day 18 hrs
disagree Yvonne Gallagher : nonsense
1 day 20 hrs
Something went wrong...
-1
5 days

before or after his or her adherence

The above is from terms and conditions of a life insurance policy. I bear in mind that terms and conditions, legalities and the small print which appears on written contracts can be rare and awkward to read. The noun adhesion is also 'adherence', which refers to one's dedication and commitment, or even devotion, which in this case can be someone's adherence (commitment and compliance) within the terms of an insurance policy. The latter section of the clause 'pour sa part' means 'for his or her part', perhaps 'on behalf of' (if, in the case of, in the absence of...). In this case 'part' is not exactly 'share'.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 32 days (2020-07-15 00:28:56 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Il se traite des termes et des conditions dedans des assurances parmi des négotiations des entreprises. Je me rappelle que ces termes et ces conditions des légalités avec les mots petits imprimis au fond des pages peuvent être étranges et difficiles de lire. Le nom adhésion est aussi, et mieux dit, l'adhérence, ce qui traite la dédication et de l'engagement jusqu'à la dévotion. Dans ce cas, celui-ci peut être l'adhérence de quelqu'un au sens de l'engagement et de la conformité dedans les parties des assurances. La partie dernière de la clause 'pour sa part' veut dire pour la part de quelqu'un pendant son absence ou défaut.
Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : But here, it is not the dead child who is 'adhering' to anything! And 'part' is indeed their 'share' of the inheritance; I'm afraid your reading is completely wrong in both respects.
5 mins
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