| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | ProZ social dumping and pricing Thread poster: jeffrey engberg
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jeffrey engberg 
Norway
Local time: 18:27
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | upward adjusting one's income? | Sep 26, 2018 |
Perhaps even adding a button stating "please do not show me job offers below "XX euro per word".
But I assumed I DID have that option when I listed my MINIMUM price in my profile?
I still have trouble with the argument that people in underdeveloped or lower gnp countries would accept a price as low as 0.03 euro or whatever. That is just stupid. Any real professional slowly upwardly-adjusts his rates over time until the ceiling is reached - wherever you live in the world.
Wouldn... See more Perhaps even adding a button stating "please do not show me job offers below "XX euro per word".
But I assumed I DID have that option when I listed my MINIMUM price in my profile?
I still have trouble with the argument that people in underdeveloped or lower gnp countries would accept a price as low as 0.03 euro or whatever. That is just stupid. Any real professional slowly upwardly-adjusts his rates over time until the ceiling is reached - wherever you live in the world.
Wouldn't someone living in India who works professionally desire to make double those base prices, just because he can?
It must be the level of professionality (meaning unprofessionals), beginners and amateurs who take these jobs. The fact that these agencies are pulling the wool over their customers' eyes and offering professional translations by non-professionals says something about their ethics. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | IMHO too complex, and involves too many assumptions | Sep 26, 2018 |
Kristian Madar wrote:
It does not matter if the poster is from Europe, Asia or Africa, they should adhere to the same rules and principles. The fact that some translators living in poor countries (with lower minimal wage, median wages or professional rates) are willing to work for lower rates is not a problem. it is their choice and we cannot blame them for this in any respect.
I assume that the majority of my colleagues have a grudge against the simple fact that low rate jobs appear on the board.
This behooves root-cause analysis: WHY do low rate jobs appear on the job board?
a) Anyone able/willing to pay royal rates would NOT state them openly.
Envision this... for whatever reason a client is willing and able to pay USD 0.30/word. I bet they wouldn't advertise it, because if they need absolutely top quality service, it's quite possible that they could get it for USD 0.25/word or less.
The conclusion here is that ONLY LOW RATES get published on the job board, by people who don't want to hear from what they consider "expensive" translators.
b) As a consequence, newcoming clients only see low rates, and assume they are an "accurate snapshot" of the marketplace. High rates are negotiated in confined spaces they don't have access to.
The conclusion is that newcomers (including those dealing with specific language pairs for the first time) get misinformed.
Some justify the statement of rates because the client has a LIMITED budget. Well, everyone has a limited budget for anything, otherwise there wouldn't be a point in having a budget at all! If that limited budget is too small to pay decent rates to a translator, it's not limited (as all budgets are), it's blatantly WRONG! ... a mere euphemism to candidly state that they are UNABLE TO AFFORD the translation they need.
If I say that my budget is $50 to buy a new iPhone, it's not a limited budget, but a wrong estimate of how much it costs. However if I saw anywhere many posts by people willing to buy cell phones for $50, I'd think that's a "normal" price. Of course, nobody would publish that they have a $10K budget to buy one new iPhone.
Kristian Madar wrote:
If you really want to fight it, in my opinion there are 2 ways how to do this: Either divide the job posting process into subsections based on the economical (or geopolitical) region of the job poster country. Then the job poster would have to post jobs in their respective zone as posting would be automatically routed according to the address of the poster on their proz profile or Blue Board.
I am sorry, but IMHO this entire idea makes it too complex, and relies on numerous economic metrics that often have nothing to do with translation.
Kristian Madar wrote:
E.g. an agency from Russia (Upper-middle-income group, no 64 in the world ranking) would be able to post a job with a budget selectable from a selection box starting at [0.04 EUR/W], [0.05 EUR/W], [0.06 EUR/W], etc, but no lower.... The same would apply for the translator. However, there would be no upward restriction.
An agency from India could post jobs starting at [0.025 EUR/W] but no lower....The same would apply for the translator
An agency from Uganda, could post e.g. [0.01 EUR/W] but no lower.
Isn't it easier to reverse the game?
An agency anywhere would post the job, being strictly prevented from giving any clue on the compensation intended.
Say that the language pair involved is NL > DE.
They'd have dozens of qualified candidates from the Netherlands and Germany, around 11¢/word (Proz Community Rates average for this pair).
They might find a handful, perhaps in the USA, Argentina or elsewhere offering it for 8¢/word. Would these be reliable? Maybe.
And they could receive a few applications from India or China in the 1-2¢/word range. What would be the likelihood of these being reliable, considering the languages at stake are not so popular there?
This is what free market is all about. The customer may weigh cost/benefit/risk, and make an intelligent decision, unbiased by cheap offers alone, since pricey, generous offers will never be exposed to the public.
Kristian Madar wrote:
This would require a complete overhaul of the proz job posting system, however a tram of good IT experts could implement this coding without any problems.
What would be the cost/benefit in implementing such a complex, and possibly fickle (on account of local economic issues) system, when time-proven free market practices can take care of it naturally?
| | | | | An environment where professionals charging professional rates can thrive | Sep 26, 2018 |
Hi folks,
To respond to the initial posting, the site's position on this issue is probably best conveyed by the comprehensive response to a petition along these lines in 2010. See: https://www.proz.com/about/ipetition
For those who want the summary version: the goal of the ProZ.com team is and always has been to create an environment where professionals charging professional... See more Hi folks,
To respond to the initial posting, the site's position on this issue is probably best conveyed by the comprehensive response to a petition along these lines in 2010. See: https://www.proz.com/about/ipetition
For those who want the summary version: the goal of the ProZ.com team is and always has been to create an environment where professionals charging professional rates can thrive. (You can assess for yourself whether or not this goal is achieved.) As a result of the petition, though, substantial changes were made so that the platform could not easily be used to "popularize" low rates. The topic comes up much less frequently now, so obviously, it helped somewhat.
We did not at the time attempt to impose rates (high or low) on site users. And we still have no plans to do so. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 18:27
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
jeffrey engberg wrote:
Perhaps even adding a button stating "please do not show me job offers below "XX euro per word".
In 2010 there was a group of lobbying ProZians who thought that they could solve the problem of low rates in job posts by simply denying agencies the ability to mention specific rates. I'm not 100% sure how their logic worked. Anyway, they got their wish, and since then it is no longer possible to exclude notifications for low-paying jobs. Thankfully, there aren't that many job posts anyway.
But I assumed I DID have that option when I listed my MINIMUM price in my profile?
The minimum rate stated in your profile page has nothing to do with the job posts rate threshold. I'm not sure what it's for, in fact.
Any real professional slowly upwardly-adjusts his rates over time until the ceiling is reached...
The ceiling is not the same in all markets. For example, the ceiling for my language combination (based on the process you describe... slowly upwardly adjusting rates) in India is USD 0.06, in Egypt USD 0.07, in the Balkans USD 0.08, in Western Europe USD 0.09, in the USA USD 0.10, and in Central Europe USD 0.11.
Wouldn't someone living in India who works professionally desire to make double those base prices, just because he can?
Some translators believe it is immoral/unethical to overcharge. Not all translators believe that, of course, and some translators believe it is perfectly ethical/morally acceptable to charge as much as they can, as long as there is a client foolish enough to accept it.
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| It's too complex! | Sep 26, 2018 |
If only bottom-feeding were limited to certain countries but the problem is that this is an "infectious disease" that has spread globally and spares no country...
[Edited at 2018-09-26 16:46 GMT]
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Samuel Murray wrote:
jeffrey engberg wrote:
Perhaps even adding a button stating "please do not show me job offers below "XX euro per word".
In 2010 there was a group of lobbying ProZians who thought that they could solve the problem of low rates in job posts by simply denying agencies the ability to mention specific rates. I'm not 100% sure how their logic worked. Anyway, they got their wish, and since then it is no longer possible to exclude notifications for low-paying jobs. Thankfully, there aren't that many job posts anyway.
Actually, that was little more than a cosmetic change, as rates were just moved to the so called "budget section" of the "job" posting. This also means that filtering based on rates would have still been entirely possible.
The minimum rate stated in your profile page has nothing to do with the job posts rate threshold. I'm not sure what it's for, in fact.
I believe that's used for filtering in the new "Find" search, so now clients can directly find translators working at specific rates... (IF it's working now, as it was bugged at release)
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Samuel Murray wrote:
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
"Viable" solutions have been proposed...
Well, I know of none.
That's because your definition of "viable" is based on your personal desirability parameters.
Someone who buys translation services into a Western language is obviously going to use them to operate in those markets, which command higher prices.
Only in an ideal world will end-clients pay agencies as much as the product is actually worth or as much as the actual value that the product has for the end-user.
That has little to do with what I was saying. Aside for the fact that one could write a book about what something "is actually worth", what I was saying was obviously linked to your baker analogy, which is simply inapplicable to translation services. You used that to basically say that Norwegian translators working at "Indian rates" don't hurt the Norwegian market because their translations are "sold" in India, while that is simply not true, for obvious reasons.
And I also believe that by silently accepting, or explicitly condoning unfair practices in the name of "realism", capitalism, "free-marketism" or whatever, we are aiding and abetting them.
[Edited at 2018-09-28 10:24 GMT]
| | | | | Internal filter and... why care? | Sep 28, 2018 |
Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Even innuendoes like "limited budget", "wealthy end-client" would be prohibited. No place to enter a budget anywhere. Proz is actually inviting - no matter if unintentionally - low rates.
But every job poster has a budget, even if it isn't mentioned. If I see what looks like an interesting job offer, then go to the trouble of sending a quote to the poster only to discover he only wants to pay $0,01/word, then it's been a waste of everybody's time. At least if I see the client is offering peanuts, I know to steer clear.
Why do you think it is that the customers who contact me specifically through my profile would never dream of offering the rates we see posted on the job board? Simple. I see the ProZ job board as the Craigslist of the language industry. Sometimes something worthwhile pops up, but mostly it is frequented by people looking for the lowest price. If you want clients who pay more, you need to look elsewhere.
Firstly, "budgets" could still be entered by clients but not shown anywhere, and still used as "filters" for notifications based on the rates you specified in your settings, and that would save you "the trouble of sending a quote".
Secondly, every now and then I see posts from people saying they basically never bid and that the job board is all but useless, because they already have more than enough work/client, they get contacted directly, generally only low paying clients use it, etc. but are still vocally against the idea of removing rates from "job" postings because that would make them waste their valuable time... It just doesn't add up...
As for me, I probably bid on one "job" every 20 or so posted, when the content seems to be interesting and the poster (apparently) reliable, so I definitely wouldn't mind "wasting" a little more time for an additional bid every now and then if that meant not letting clients decide rates and translators (especially new ones) see them as the bible and meekly conform to them.
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Daniel Frisano wrote:
Check on the back of the device you are using right now to read this page, where it says "Made in ...". Is it made in which country? First world? Assembled by workers earning first-world wages?
Exactly. Assembled by workers living in Eastern countries and then sold in Western countries, while here we're talking about "products" made and sold in/aimed at Western countries, but "assembled" by paying those very same Western "workers" Eastern "wages"...
| | | | | The key point | Sep 28, 2018 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
Exactly. Assembled by workers living in Eastern countries and then sold in Western countries, while here we're talking about "products" made and sold in/aimed at Western countries, but "assembled" by paying those very same Western "workers" Eastern "wages"...
The first decent photo camera (yes, I got as close to a professional photographer as one can before truly becoming one) I used was my father's Rolleiflex, in the early 60s. On the front it showed the manufacturer "Franke & Heidecke, Braunschweig". It was an icon of German craftsmanship.
I saw the dawn of globalization in the late 70s. A colleague did a big personal favor to our Norwegian boss and, in return, he was given a 35 mm Rollei camera, then a new launch. Underneath, it read "Made in Singapore".
Translation work has two peculiarities:
1. It doesn't matter where the translator is located physically;
2. foreign languages are harder to find where they are not 'local'.
So the translator can live anywhere on the planet, and continue translating in the same language pair(s), supposedly unaffected by the local environment/language. Relatively few translators will be available anywhere for language pairs not including the local language.
Cost of living - and hence the necessary income for living - may vary sharply from one place to another.
Putting it bluntly, very few - if any - of the workers who built that Rollei camera in Singapore would be able to speak or understand German.
Taking this into account, it is unreasonable that a translation buyer should ever mention how much they are willing to pay for the job they need done.
If I can't afford a BMW in Brazil, it makes sense to assume that I wouldn't be able to buy it in Germany (in spite of the comparatively lower taxes there), and that I wouldn't be able to buy it in Delhi either!
Okay, these cars are manufactured in Germany and in the USA. They have no plants in countries where labor is comparatively much cheaper.
So what would be the point of me posting publicly anywhere that I want to pay US$5K for a brand new BMW?
Translation is different, as there could be minor "shops" anywhere. There could be, say, just half a dozen FR>NL translators in India or China. Would these low-budget job posters be hunting exclusively for these exceptions, hoping that they would be immediately available? This wouldn't justify the time and effort to post the job.
The problem is not so much in posting cheap jobs to receive much higher bids from competent translators. The problem is in massively displaying these low rates to unwary prospects, leading them to reasonably think that translation is such a dastardly cheap service, that they can afford it! This, in turn, leads them to grossly underestimate their translation budget, and the whole thing snowballs in the marketplace.
The solution would be taking steps to prevent translation buyers from "reasonably" publishing how much they'd "like" to pay for translation work. If their budget is wrong, miscalculated, there is no reason why translators should accept it as correct.
[Edited at 2018-09-28 11:57 GMT]
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José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
The problem is not so much in posting cheap jobs to receive much higher bids from competent translators. The problem is in massively displaying these low rates to unwary prospects, leading them to reasonably think that translation is such a dastardly cheap service, that they can afford it! This, in turn, leads them to grossly underestimate their translation budget, and the whole thing snowballs in the marketplace.
The solution would be taking steps to prevent translation buyers from "reasonably" publishing hpow much they'd "like" to pay for translation work. If their budget is wrong, miscalculated, there is no reason why translators should accept it as correct.
As I was saying in reply to Fiona, above: "I definitely wouldn't mind "wasting" a little more time for an additional bid every now and then if that meant not letting clients decide rates and translators (especially new ones) see them as the bible and meekly conform to them."
You often see new users here (and many of them start out as paying users) posting questions about how to start, how to get clients, etc. etc. ... and, obviously, about what rates they should be charging. I would imagine that for every new user who posts similar questions on the fora, there are dozens who don't, and just move forward based on guesswork and pieces of info they can get here and there, which will almost certainly include the "budgets" they see published here, and IMO that's not particularly good learning material...
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