| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Request! let us post the client's proof! Thread poster: toptrans
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Dinny 
Greece
Local time: 14:09
Italian to Danish
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| Tayfun, let me put this from a consumer's point of view... | Aug 23, 2004 |
Tayfun Torunoglu wrote:
That is what agency should know.
You can not buy a Rolly Royce or Mercedes for a Price of Motorbike  and Dinny's argument settles the question, just as you cannot buy Mercedes quality for a price of Motorbike you can not expect the same quality from your translator, He/she may be a motorbike.
If I'm a client, I'll be looking for the best offer.
If an agency offers me the Rolls for the price of a motorbike, NOT MY PROBLEM, I'll accept the offer, and I'll expect a Rolls to be delivered. Otherwise the agency is liable and can expect trouble, 'cause I want what I've agreed to buy.
If I'm an agency and I have the money to buy a motorbike but want a Rolls, somebody out there might be hungry enough to sell me his Rolls for the price of a motorbike. If the bargain is done, I'll expect my Rolls to be delivered. Otherwise don't accept to sell at this price!
What I really want to say is: don't sell what you don't have! If you do, you have to deliver, or you won't get paid!
And if you have a Rolls, don't sell it for the price of a motorbike!
[Edited at 2004-08-23 20:53]
| | | | Dinny
Greece
Local time: 14:09
Italian to Danish
+ ...
| Tayfun, not to discredit or underrate.... | Aug 23, 2004 |
.. but a person who wants to work as a translator must know his/her own limits.
I'm a Danish native and my English is, to the best of my knowledge, a fair business English. Therefore I'm comfortable working between those languages. I've been speaking Italian for the last thirty years, and I do, occasionally, accept to do translations into Italian - but NEVER would I deliver the translation without having it checked by a native Italian first! It might cost me a lunch, it might cost ... See more .. but a person who wants to work as a translator must know his/her own limits.
I'm a Danish native and my English is, to the best of my knowledge, a fair business English. Therefore I'm comfortable working between those languages. I've been speaking Italian for the last thirty years, and I do, occasionally, accept to do translations into Italian - but NEVER would I deliver the translation without having it checked by a native Italian first! It might cost me a lunch, it might cost me part of my fee, but I don't sell what I don't have - I'm not a native Italian and I know my limits. In this case, the Italian grammar, it will surely fool me somewhere along the line, and that's why I'll get somebody to check before delivering.
If I accept to do a translation into Italian, I'll do it at the current acceptable rate - but I will for sure deliver a translation into Italian and not some monkey-business mixture, otherwise I'll compromise my job, my reputation, and that of all other translators in some way.
Let me get back to the point: If I accept to deliver a job in Italian - even though I know perfectly well I'm not a native speaker and therefore might make mistakes - I MUST have my work checked BEFORE delivering it to an agency. Yes, the agency should ALSO check the quality, but they would be right to expect that I deliver what I've agreed to deliver: a translation into Italian, and not some approximate mixture of the language.
And no, I don't think the agency should pay me if I deliver a translation into Italian which IS NOT Italian. The agency can pretend to get what it has ordered, and if I have accepted to deliver, that is exactly what I should do in order to get paid.
YES, the agency has a responsibility to check the work before delivering it to the final client, and YES the agency should take care when hiring translators, but I don't think they should pay for getting this stupid motorbike when I have accepted to deliver a Rolls. I believe they should INSIST on getting the Rolls, no matter how much it would cost the translator in the end to deliver what he has promised.
I am really curious to hear other translators' points of view on this subject.... ▲ Collapse
| | | | LindaMcM
Local time: 13:09
Swedish to German
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| Low rates - company's risk... | Aug 23, 2004 |
My two cents (Euro): if I promise to do the job (even for 2 cent / word) I do it the best I can. That's the way it should be and that's what the client can expect...
But, if I, as an agency, want high quality work and I know what translation is about, I should maybe ask the question: what people translate, correct, make researches and proof read for that amount...? I would suppose: none who has studied for years, has years of experiences,...
It's just the way it is: you... See more My two cents (Euro): if I promise to do the job (even for 2 cent / word) I do it the best I can. That's the way it should be and that's what the client can expect...
But, if I, as an agency, want high quality work and I know what translation is about, I should maybe ask the question: what people translate, correct, make researches and proof read for that amount...? I would suppose: none who has studied for years, has years of experiences,...
It's just the way it is: you want quality? Then you have to pay for it! If you pay low rates then you can't be surprised if you get low quality...
As an agency you could protect yourself by requesting a sample translation or / and hire a proof reader (but what would you be willing to pay the proof reader, 0,02 cent?). Then you are in the same situation again...
Just my opinion....
Kind regards, Linda ▲ Collapse
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 06:09
English to Russian
+ ...
| Exactly! "How many cents per word" is not an argument per se | Aug 23, 2004 |
don't sell what you don't have!
However true, nothing regarding rate/quality ratio is relevant at this point, and we are dealing with the legal issue instead. Things are very simple. The buyer made an offer, the seller accepted the offer and committed to deliver for the agreed price. The seller did not deliver for whatever reason, who cares unless force major is present, which is clearly not the case. The seller must bear the consequences including the ones arising from poor choice of subcontractors, in our case - translators. They delivered a number of words, they have material evidence of their labour. Apparently you hired the wrong bunch and allowed them to complete the job. Too bad. BTW, I only listed the facts, no judgements.
I would say pay, count your losses and next time test - the colleagues are right.
Tina, I honestly doubt that you could save your reputation by posting some emails - hearsay, your word against their's etc., the only way to save it now is to pay for it.
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toptrans
India
Local time: 17:39
English to Hindi
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TOPIC STARTER
[Hello All,
Thank you for all the comments, but we feel rates depend on nations too.We are offering the best we can,And we also agree that the rates in India is not 1/2 the rates in US/UK.
And when a translator knows and understands this, he has to do his best too.
We had very strange case when we got Korean-Chinese trnasltion for a Simplified Chinese job!
Tina
| | | | toptrans
India
Local time: 17:39
English to Hindi
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Hello Monica and others,
Thank you, for your views!.
Believe us, we have been facing problem with a top-notch agency (not mentioning the name/location), when we had agreed to pay their rates ....
Every time, we do not offer low rates, but there are certain projects where a high rate is definetely offered.
Despite of the rates they have given us a horrid job!, we dont understand why we have to pay!
Regards
Tina
| | | | | What were the rates offered by you? | Aug 24, 2004 |
I checked your blueboard as well as your profile. The two low ratings are from a Bulgarian translator and from a Chinese translator respectively. Bulgarian does not seem to be in your pairs. The Chinese translator himself seems to be an agency.
As an agency, what work can you expect from another agency? What rate can the original translator hope to get under this arrangement? What arrangement do you have for quality controlling the Bulgarian translation? (This is presuming that you ... See more I checked your blueboard as well as your profile. The two low ratings are from a Bulgarian translator and from a Chinese translator respectively. Bulgarian does not seem to be in your pairs. The Chinese translator himself seems to be an agency.
As an agency, what work can you expect from another agency? What rate can the original translator hope to get under this arrangement? What arrangement do you have for quality controlling the Bulgarian translation? (This is presuming that you delivered a translation into Bulgarian. Even otherwise, you have to get the services of a proofreader who has a good idea of the source language.)
And your rates too are not much to write home about. Under these circumstances what quality can you expect?
Regards,
N.Raghavan ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dinny
Greece
Local time: 14:09
Italian to Danish
+ ...
| Silence which is food for thought... | Aug 24, 2004 |
An agency asks if they have to pay for a bad translation.
Most answers refer to the poor rate offered, and "what did you expect?".
Which means I can now expand my business.
From now on I can do translations into, say, Indian.
I'll accept any job at any rate, have a machine do the translation and deliver whatever comes out.
Then I'll just lean back and expect my paycheque to arrive...
Of course, I won't be doing business with the same agency t... See more An agency asks if they have to pay for a bad translation.
Most answers refer to the poor rate offered, and "what did you expect?".
Which means I can now expand my business.
From now on I can do translations into, say, Indian.
I'll accept any job at any rate, have a machine do the translation and deliver whatever comes out.
Then I'll just lean back and expect my paycheque to arrive...
Of course, I won't be doing business with the same agency twice, but then again, who cares, there are thousands of agencies, and as long as I deliver some look-alike translation I'll have a world of professionals backing me up and stating that any job should be paid.
Is there something I misunderstood along the way?
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| Yes, you misunderstood something along the way | Aug 24, 2004 |
As an agency, it was your duty to select the right people, whose rates can in no way be peanuts. But trouble starts, if you yourself are charging peanuts. You have to pay peanuts minus your percentage. And under these circumstances, you don't have a leg to stand on.
If you offer to translate into Indian (no such language exists by the way), and an agency is foolish enough to accept it, then it deserves what it gets. You will surely not get another job from that agency for the simple... See more As an agency, it was your duty to select the right people, whose rates can in no way be peanuts. But trouble starts, if you yourself are charging peanuts. You have to pay peanuts minus your percentage. And under these circumstances, you don't have a leg to stand on.
If you offer to translate into Indian (no such language exists by the way), and an agency is foolish enough to accept it, then it deserves what it gets. You will surely not get another job from that agency for the simple reason that it will go out of business with such practices.
Regards,
N.Raghavan
Dinny wrote:
An agency asks if they have to pay for a bad translation.
Most answers refer to the poor rate offered, and "what did you expect?".
Which means I can now expand my business.
From now on I can do translations into, say, Indian.
I'll accept any job at any rate, have a machine do the translation and deliver whatever comes out.
Then I'll just lean back and expect my paycheque to arrive...
Of course, I won't be doing business with the same agency twice, but then again, who cares, there are thousands of agencies, and as long as I deliver some look-alike translation I'll have a world of professionals backing me up and stating that any job should be paid.
Is there something I misunderstood along the way?
) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | the crux of the matter in my opinion | Aug 24, 2004 |
I certainly think the agency should pay for work asked for an received. It is up to the agency to test new translators, either with a test, or a short paid translation. If the quality is not there, then do not hire them again. If you hire a worker, you must pay them for the time they are working, even if you don't like their work and end up firing them.
I do not begrudge agencies the percentage they get for being middlemen between me and the client because they have a hard job that ... See more I certainly think the agency should pay for work asked for an received. It is up to the agency to test new translators, either with a test, or a short paid translation. If the quality is not there, then do not hire them again. If you hire a worker, you must pay them for the time they are working, even if you don't like their work and end up firing them.
I do not begrudge agencies the percentage they get for being middlemen between me and the client because they have a hard job that I don't want to have to deal with. But then they can't complain about the problems that are intrinsic to their function. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 06:09
English to Russian
+ ...
| Problems of good and bad translation | Aug 24, 2004 |
I assume we all know how subjective such definition could be. We had postings here claiming that the client rejected an excellent job or messed it up entirely by using an incompetent proofreader. I have no reason not to believe our upset colleagues. So... In fact, in terms of contractual obligations and possible cause is takes a legal action and independent expertise accepted in writing by both parties to prove that it is bad. In practice none of us goes through this headache; if and when we as ... See more I assume we all know how subjective such definition could be. We had postings here claiming that the client rejected an excellent job or messed it up entirely by using an incompetent proofreader. I have no reason not to believe our upset colleagues. So... In fact, in terms of contractual obligations and possible cause is takes a legal action and independent expertise accepted in writing by both parties to prove that it is bad. In practice none of us goes through this headache; if and when we as agencies make mistakes and receive poor jobs we swear in all the languages we know, beg our tested friends to save us, count our losses and make sure that "never again". I can't imagine losing a lot moneywise, i.e. sending thousands of words to an unknown translator without any tests, or translation samples, or studying a small portion of work first, or references, you name it. Loss of a client would be much more serious, but then again, how can any professional agency put the relationship with a new client to such a risk? The agencies I work with care for the quality at all times and new people receive large jobs only when they are highly recommended by the oldtimers, but when it comes to new clients, they are "triple-choosy" to pick trusted (and expensive) top guns and show off.
Dinny, I would not be in a hurry to expand the business the way you suggested. The guys did not get paid so far:-). The problem is mutual.
It is my opinion that when things fall through the crack as they have, it is simply much easier and cheaper to pay than to shudder from phone calls, fight bad references and legal battles. We don't need any lawyers or judges to recognize a bad translation, but for what it's worth the translators or the so called translators have their rights until proven guilty. Can you imagine how high the expertise etc. costs can be? They should pay for one plain practical reason - things happen (remember Forrest Gump?). What is the other choice - hiding, yelling back, telling everyone who heard a bad word that "oh, no, we are good, they are lying"?. In fact, and I apologize for the remark, we are talking about the payment for mismanagement, not for the translation.
I wonder how high the volume and the whole amount in question are? I understand that I can not ask any such questions and do not expect an answer. Consider it thinking out loud... ▲ Collapse
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