| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Exceedingly low rate even for large-volume job Thread poster: tr. (X)
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bergazy 
Croatia
Local time: 20:17
Croatian to Italian
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victorhugo wrote:
Hi,
One idea could be to mark each job as 1st division job or 2nd division job (as for soccer, but there's probably something else which fit better in english culture) and to associate a crosslight (red, yellow, green) depending on the price. It could be dissuasive. What do you think about ?
Jean-Marie
We could do it the same way we evaluate CAT Tools ( CAT Fight ) and Agencies
( BlueBoard ).
Rates 1-5 and short comment.
Name: Rates Duel
Marko
| | | | Edward Potter
Spain
Local time: 20:17
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Recapitulating, we are talking about the following posting:
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http://www.proz.com/job/50796
Languages: English>Italian
Job description:
This is a job for a multinational company. It will involve about 3 months of full time work for 5 translators. Please consider that you will be busy for this period of time full time before a... See more Recapitulating, we are talking about the following posting:
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http://www.proz.com/job/50796
Languages: English>Italian
Job description:
This is a job for a multinational company. It will involve about 3 months of full time work for 5 translators. Please consider that you will be busy for this period of time full time before applying. Then you can take a vacation with 10000 USD or so, but you cannot quit midway. Half of the payment will be paid for each delivery (every 15 days or so) and the remaining half after final delivery. The requisites are:
- Italian native
- Experience in the field
- Trados
- Hard worker
The price is low but there are many repetitions which will speed up the project as it goes on. We will share the memories with the other translators and I\'ll coordinate the work and define the terminology. Only freelance translators, no agencies.
There is the possibility of further future work in the years to come.
Volume and pricing: 4000 pages at 5.00 USD per page [ TOTAL: 20000.00 USD ]
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My comments:
This outsourcer has every right to make such an offer. On the other hand, we have every right to raise our voices in protest.
This person may have well found a good way to make a profit for himself, and I will not begrudge him of it.
Perhaps he will give the work to an unemployed translator or someone who is just starting out who does reasonable work. Such a person may be happy to take the work. Even if he hires someone who does bad work, I assume he is a capable proofreader of the language combination and will ensure the quality of the translation. He would find someone else quickly after the first bad delivery.
That said, there is a high possibility he will hiring people who have little experience and are not established. He will have to be very careful.
Frankly, this outsources is not going about it the right way if he wants to have a professional agency. He should be charging his clients enough so that he will be able to give the going market rate for established translators, not well under it. The price offered here indicates that this person himself is not established, is struggling to become professional and is still experimenting with his business.
There are two mitigating factors of this low rate: 1) apparently a CAT tool will make it go faster, effectively raising the rate somewhat; 2) He is paying half of it up front.
My advice, in the end, is simply do not accept, perhaps send a note of protest, then stop spending your energy worrying about being offended by the offer and look elsewhere.
We all should be busy searching for good clients, not wasting energy on what we see as unprofitable work. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Luca Tutino
Italy
Member (2002)
English to Italian
+ ...
| A guerrilla solution? | Feb 28, 2004 |
It is clear that ProZ cannot do much. But we can!
Jerzy Czopik wrote:
Discussing this matter again and again and critisizing such low rates is not the way.
Only not accepting such jobs can help.
Actually, I just realized that there is another thing that could be done: systematically ACCEPT these jobs, and then LET THE OUTSOURCER DOWN... every single one of them. Imagine just delaying the delivery day after day, and then not deliver at all. What a revenge! The wrongdoer would then learn his lesson.
I know this will be quite controversial. Let us say that I am not suggesting it. I just mention it as a theoretical possibility do discuss it among us.
What do you think?
(ok, ok... I would never do such a thing...)
[Edited at 2004-02-28 18:40]
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 20:17
German to English
+ ...
| Exceedingly low price even for high-grade product | Feb 28, 2004 |
This is unbelievable. How low are people willing to stoop? Check this out: industrial strength, stable and virus-proof PC operating system - attractive, user-friendly desktop - not dozens, but HUNDREDS of applications - three different word processors - choice of browsers - e-mail clients - choice of image editing software - PDF tools - compression utilities - accounts software - loads of other stuff - for a disgustingly low price!
How low are these computer guys willing to go? Have... See more This is unbelievable. How low are people willing to stoop? Check this out: industrial strength, stable and virus-proof PC operating system - attractive, user-friendly desktop - not dozens, but HUNDREDS of applications - three different word processors - choice of browsers - e-mail clients - choice of image editing software - PDF tools - compression utilities - accounts software - loads of other stuff - for a disgustingly low price!
How low are these computer guys willing to go? Haven't they got any ethics? Where's the professionalism? I know some of these geeks live in poverty-stricken places like San Francisco and Germany, but that's no excuse. This kind of thing should be banned! See for yourselves. Can't something be done about this?
http://www.knoppix.net/get.php
Marc
And don't blame me - I'm just a regular, expensive translator! ▲ Collapse
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Angela Arnone
Local time: 20:17
Member (2004)
Italian to English
+ ...
| arithmetic and shopping baskets | Feb 28, 2004 |
Exactly dear Luca!!! Our destiny is in our own hands ... but absoutely not with the system you suggest.
When you accept a job, you are honour-bound to do it, do it properly and deliver on time.
Otherwise you are in breach of contract and tumble from the right to the wrong of it.
And you get a bad name. Not worth it.
What has to be done is to educate fellow translators and clients.
Let's do some simple sums.... how many words can you translate in an hour and for how ... See more Exactly dear Luca!!! Our destiny is in our own hands ... but absoutely not with the system you suggest.
When you accept a job, you are honour-bound to do it, do it properly and deliver on time.
Otherwise you are in breach of contract and tumble from the right to the wrong of it.
And you get a bad name. Not worth it.
What has to be done is to educate fellow translators and clients.
Let's do some simple sums.... how many words can you translate in an hour and for how many hours a day and days a week can you do that, safeguarding quality.... and doing that number of words, what do you need to charge to earn a decent living after tax? Work it out. Then add some!!! For rainy days and Mondays.
If what you are offered is less than that, don't even power up your computer as you'll be paying for electricity out of your own pocket!!!
Explain this to those offering jobs at that rate. I find it works very well. Those who want to exploit you and bring down market rates begin to stop wasting your time.
Luca Tutino wrote:
It is clear that ProZ cannot do much. But we can!
systematically ACCEPT these jobs, and then LET THE OUTSOURCER DOWN... every single one of them. Imagine just delaying the delivery day after day, and then not deliver at all. What a revenge! The wrongdoer would then learn his lesson.
[Edited at 2004-02-28 18:17]
On the other side of the fence, whilst understanding outrage at such offers, we cannot really, in a free market, do much to stop them.
When you go shopping, the high street offers shoes or trousers or apples or whatever, at many different prices. Do we suggest that those who sell 10 euro trousers be forced to stop this? I doubt it. We simply need to be aware that it is unlikely that a 10 euro pair of trousers will offer the same type of quality as a 50 euro pair.
Now I know the analogy is slightly forced, but I think we must realise that a free market is a free market.
All we can do is educate our fellows to be strong, resist temptation, overcome fear of not finding work and educate clients that a quality translation cannot cost too little.
Or we will end up paying customers to let us work for them!
Angela
[Edited at 2004-02-28 18:35] ▲ Collapse
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AURORA HUMARAN wrote:
10,000 words at 0.08 USD
30,000 words at 0.07 USD
50,000 words at 0.06 USD
100,000 words at 0.04 USD
By the time they honor us with more words, are we in danger of HAVING TO PAY to translate?....
Hi Aurora, it was you who told us that translation doesn't pay and that therefore translators are criminals
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 16:17
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Es preferible reír que llorar..... | Feb 28, 2004 |
Lorenzo Lilli wrote:
Hi Aurora, it was you who told us that translation doesn't pay and that therefore translators are criminals
Just for your info. There is a 3,000,000 (yes, three million) word project going around in Argentina and the "middle-woman" (an Argentine from Rosario, sigh.....) is offering it at 0.02 USD and 0.03 USD. I wonder how much she is getting paid for a financial text this size. We all know and agree to agencies' profit considering the job they do and the fact that they can handle big projects. They offer services single translators cannot offer. However, these "agencies" are nothing but individuals who obtain large jobs at international rates and offer them at local rates. Rates which are low even if seen from the local perspective.
The other day an "agency" got a job at 0.10 Euro and offered it locally at 0.03 Euro. Wow, that is what I call a margin... Unethical, though.
As a wise parrot once said: many people are living out of intermediation these days.
As if translation had become a commodity...
Salud Lorenzo!
Au
[Edited at 2004-02-29 08:57]
| | | | Parrot
Spain
Local time: 20:17
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Oh... I've seen the scenario before | Feb 28, 2004 |
Why someone would want to outsource 1M words
It's simple math. If you do it all, it'd take you about a year (or more). In a year, you're bound to get many more (and higher-paying) jobs. You might even lose those better clients for the 2 cents. See?
I'd propose another math. If you have to do things like this, anyway, why don't you make sure you do it at a rate your best friends wouldn't mind sharin... See more
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two2tango
Argentina
Local time: 16:17
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Just ignore them! | Feb 29, 2004 |
Luca Tutino wrote:
Actually, I just realized that there is another thing that could be done: systematically ACCEPT these jobs, and then LET THE OUTSOURCER DOWN... every single one of them. Imagine just delaying the delivery day after day, and then not deliver at all. What a revenge! The wrongdoer would then learn his lesson.
I know this will be quite controversial. Let us say that I am not suggesting it. I just mention it as a theoretical possibility do discuss it among us.
What do you think?
(ok, ok... I would never do such a thing...)
Never wrestle with A pig ... you'll both get dirty, and only the pig will enjoy it.
Just ignore them!
Cheers,
Enrique
[Edited at 2004-02-29 03:22]
| | | | | Proz.com's share of responsability... | Feb 29, 2004 |
These offers exist also because Proz.com exists. As a vehicle, Proz.com plays an important role in facilitating this appalling situation. As far as I am concerned, Proz.com is as guilty as these posters.
I suggest to remove entirely the job area. If a poster wishes to find a translator on Proz.com, he/she can use the search function. The great visibility given to these very low rates is greatly distorting the market and damaging our profession.
KudoZ area without the p... See more These offers exist also because Proz.com exists. As a vehicle, Proz.com plays an important role in facilitating this appalling situation. As far as I am concerned, Proz.com is as guilty as these posters.
I suggest to remove entirely the job area. If a poster wishes to find a translator on Proz.com, he/she can use the search function. The great visibility given to these very low rates is greatly distorting the market and damaging our profession.
KudoZ area without the points system to stop the silly points race, which in turn feeds the "freebie" culture and encourages unprofessional people to establish themselves in the profession
Blue Board area open to everybody to eradicate the non payment practices adopted by many outsourcers and to establish transparency
Removal of the KudoZ leaders section. We are not at school...
Regards,
Giovanni ▲ Collapse
| | | | tr. (X)
Local time: 20:17
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER | Yes, it's the free market, but... | Feb 29, 2004 |
...services like Proz could still set their own rules, just like they do by moderating these forums to prevent abuses.
The market is free, but just like no one can prevent an agency or a translator from setting or accepting prices like 0.01 or 0.02 USD per word, no one can prevent a service like Proz from setting its own rules, if it so chooses. Being all-inclusive often comes at the cost of standards.
I do understand why it can be problematic to set price limits to pre... See more ...services like Proz could still set their own rules, just like they do by moderating these forums to prevent abuses.
The market is free, but just like no one can prevent an agency or a translator from setting or accepting prices like 0.01 or 0.02 USD per word, no one can prevent a service like Proz from setting its own rules, if it so chooses. Being all-inclusive often comes at the cost of standards.
I do understand why it can be problematic to set price limits to prevent this sort of jobs from being posted, if one aims at reaching all kinds of markets and all kinds of users in any country. True, translators can simply ignore those jobs. But then again, Proz.com is not simply a neutral communication channel through which all sorts of messages can be delivered. It can be more selective.
Perhaps a good compromise could be setting limits based on each language combination. The countries with lower prices could still be served, and a selection process would be applied at the same time.
Or maybe, jobs could be moderated and previewed, just like postings in the message board. Established agencies with good ratings in the Blue Board, for instance, could post instantly without needing their jobs previewed, while new ones would have to go through an approval process.
There are ways to try and find a balance between openness and standards. It just depends on your intentions and focus really. ▲ Collapse
| | | | tr. (X)
Local time: 20:17
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER | Not really the right comparison... | Feb 29, 2004 |
Jerzy Czopik wrote:
No one critisizes Daewoo for selling it´s cars much cheaper then Mercedes does. And even on the same quality level (if we assume, Mercedes HAS better quality...) there are major price differences. So will it be in translation business either. If you don´t like the offered price, don´t accept.
Well, Jerzy, it's not really a suitable comparison. Both Daewoo and Mercedes are established *quality* brands. It's not that one brand makes cheap and bad cars, while the other makes good but expensive ones. They *both* make good cars, but of different kinds, for different uses, and different targets. A Mercedes is a luxury, a Daewoo is an *affordable* city car, not a wreck or a fraud. Besides, the prices are fair, not outrageously cheap - even the cheapest model there will still have a price that can't be defined as "exceedingly low" by any standard. And if you buy it, you don't expect it to fall apart within a month. You're still buying quality, at a relatively reasonable price, and with all the guarantees of buying a decent product.
The relevant point here, if we want to use a loose comparison with cars, is that, while it's ultimately the customer who chooses what car to buy, it's also the car dealer who chooses what kind of cars to put in his showroom.
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Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 20:17
English to German
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| Job vetting exists | Feb 29, 2004 |
Hi again, "Traweb",
(I'd prefer to address you by name, but that's a bit difficult here...)
The market is free, but just like no one can prevent an agency or a translator from setting or accepting prices like 0.01 or 0.02 USD per word, no one can prevent a service like Proz from setting its own rules, if it so chooses. Being all-inclusive often comes at the cost of standards.
Please don't forget the issue of price fixing - this is not as straightforward as one might think. Besides, I repeat one of my original questions: who is going to define what constitutes an "acceptable" price level? To me, the prices you advertise in your profile are unacceptable - but why should I try to stop you from selling your services at that level, if you're happy with it?
I do understand why it can be problematic to set price limits to prevent this sort of jobs from being posted, if one aims at reaching all kinds of markets and all kinds of users in any country. True, translators can simply ignore those jobs. But then again, Proz.com is not simply a neutral communication channel through which all sorts of messages can be delivered. It can be more selective.
It is already - have a look at FAQ 12 on how low-paying jobs are filtered in terms of notifications. What we're currently trying to establish is to make pricing information mandatory, so job posters cannot circumvent this mechanism by posting "USD 4 for 300 words" or something like that.
Perhaps a good compromise could be setting limits based on each language combination. The countries with lower prices could still be served, and a selection process would be applied at the same time.
That's part of the rates system (albeit not country-specific, of course). Hang on a second here: are you saying that prices should differ depending on the provider's country of residence? Aren't you depriving those colleagues in perceived "low-cost" countries of the chance to adjust their pricing to international levels?
Or maybe, jobs could be moderated and previewed, just like postings in the message board. Established agencies with good ratings in the Blue Board, for instance, could post instantly without needing their jobs previewed, while new ones would have to go through an approval process.
That's exactly what's happening already. A team of Jobs/BB moderators check certain jobs before they go live (BB ratings play a major part in determining whether or not a job requires vetting). Note that we don't check the price level (as this is something to be agreed upon between the job poster and the provider of the service), but we do block inappropriate postings or attempts by known non-payers to post.
There are ways to try and find a balance between openness and standards. It just depends on your intentions and focus really.
Agreed - plus it depends on your perspective.
Best regards, Ralf
| | | | Angela Arnone
Local time: 20:17
Member (2004)
Italian to English
+ ...
| You can set all the rules you want .... | Feb 29, 2004 |
but that does not stop people breaking those rules.
I know many people who preach loudly about how they only accept jobs at "n" Euros but that does not stop them contacting me to offer me work at much lower rates. So how about that?
And as there is no law that stops people selling at the rate they prefer (actually there are laws that govern "price-fixing" if I am not mistaken) then the best action is to SAY NO. It's easy enough.
And perhpas the perspective of proz.com does not ... See more but that does not stop people breaking those rules.
I know many people who preach loudly about how they only accept jobs at "n" Euros but that does not stop them contacting me to offer me work at much lower rates. So how about that?
And as there is no law that stops people selling at the rate they prefer (actually there are laws that govern "price-fixing" if I am not mistaken) then the best action is to SAY NO. It's easy enough.
And perhpas the perspective of proz.com does not see as "abuse" such offers. In fact, I see the situation as being one for educating those of us who are not aware that such rates are "outrageous".
When I started freelancing I was totally unaware of what I should charge, now, thanks to this site, I know and I also know the level of translator I am, as well as a good many other things I knew nothing of then.
Personally, I find the offering of poor rates a minimal defect compared to the other plus points offered by proz, and I prefer to try and educate people out of that sort of trap rather than set rules.
As far as Giovanni's other comments are concerned, about kudoz, whilst appreciating his opinion, my answer would be that if he doesn't appreciate or enjoy the kudoz bullring, he can simply ignore it. The site is based on this sort of human contact with all its pros and cons (pardon the pun proZ and conZ?) .... many ardent proz members never answer kudoz. Personally, I rarely get into forums, because I don't enjoy them, but I don't post messages saying they should be abolished!
wrote:
...services like Proz could still set their own rules, just like they do by moderating these forums to prevent abuses.
The rest was dealt with perfectly by Ralf.
Cheers
Angela
[Edited at 2004-02-29 14:08] ▲ Collapse
| | | | tr. (X)
Local time: 20:17
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER | Re: job vetting | Feb 29, 2004 |
Hi Ralf,
thank you for the kind reply. First of all I'd like to clarify I, like many others, am only offering specific suggestions on a specific point, not being dismissive of the whole system.
I just think it could do with some improvements to guarantee quality standards, but it's only up to Proz to decide its own standards, of course. That's all taken for granted.
I'm just curious as to whether there are proposals being taken into consideration, that's a... See more Hi Ralf,
thank you for the kind reply. First of all I'd like to clarify I, like many others, am only offering specific suggestions on a specific point, not being dismissive of the whole system.
I just think it could do with some improvements to guarantee quality standards, but it's only up to Proz to decide its own standards, of course. That's all taken for granted.
I'm just curious as to whether there are proposals being taken into consideration, that's all.
I'm glad that there are forms of moderation and job vetting, and that inappropriate jobs get removed. However, the point is that inappropriate prices do not, and I disagree with the assumption that there is just no way of setting the appropriate *minimum* price.
See, I don't see it as "price fixing". Proz is not a trade union, a state, a legislator. It is a free agent itself, in a free market. Like a shop owner, or a tv channel, it can accept or refuse products or ads. Based on its own judgement.
At least, unless I am ignoring specific constraints, legal or otherwise, that would explicitely prevent such a selection process.
You wrote:
I repeat one of my original questions: who is going to define what constitutes an "acceptable" price level?
Well, who defines what constitutes an acceptable forum post?
You see, there is already a selection process in action, in one section of this site.
Proz is not a telephone company allowing all kinds of conversation to take place on its lines.
I think, if you're willing to apply a similar selection or moderation principle to jobs, then the details of how to do it can be explored and workable compromises found.
It all depends on whether you want to apply a selection or not in the first place.
To me, the prices you advertise in your profile are unacceptable - but why should I try to stop you from selling your services at that level, if you're happy with it?
Well, whether you mean that literally or not, the idea is: I myself can decide my own prices, just like anyone, translator or agency. We all agree on that. Anyone can decide whatever prices they like.
But here, I am *only a user of this service*, and the people who manage Proz have every right to delete my profile just like they have a right to delete my posts in this forum. If they so wish. It's their indisputable judgement, because they are offering these services. It's up to me to take advantage of them or not, but once you set the rules, I can only accept, or leave. I am still free to set my prices or post my views anywhere else, even if they should not be acceptable here, of course! So no one is trying to "fix" my prices. But as long as I use *this* service, whether I am a translator or an agency, then this service has a right to set what rules I should follow as a user.
This can be applied equally to job postings and to forums.
Hang on a second here: are you saying that prices should differ depending on the provider's country of residence? Aren't you depriving those colleagues in perceived "low-cost" countries of the chance to adjust their pricing to international levels?
Not really, no. Like I said, I do appreciate there can be many things to take in consideration in that respect.
I just think setting a minimum limit, also customised according to language combination, but regardless of geographical location of provider or client, could be a good start. And by minimum I really mean minimum - to prevent outrageous rip-offs, not the individual variations of prices that are only natural in any market, or the geographical variations relative to different markets.
(Besides, that's not the one decisive factor - there are agencies that pay good rates even in countries where the cost is assumed to be lower, and there are agencies in Europe or the US who pay bad rates, it's all up to the standards of each individual agent really).
But, there are several other suggestions being given also in other threads on this same topic, that do not involve setting minimum limits. So, it just depends on whether the problem is felt strongly enough to try and find at least tentative ways to discourage such low pricing, or not. ▲ Collapse
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